Latest / Atomic Rambo Podcast / Burnout Broke Him. Nature Rebuilt Him. | Rob Dennis

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Burnout Broke Him. Nature Rebuilt Him. | Rob Dennis · Atomic Rambo Podcast

• Dan Holder: I'm Dan and this is the Atomic Rambo And today I have got on Rob Dennis. Now Rob ⁓ used to work for me in tree surgery that's how I met him. We've been mates for a long time. He's an awesome guy. He's done, been through some massive changes ⁓ and dealt with a lot. ⁓ So here is. Yeah, it's been a long time coming because we spoke about having a podcast and doing a podcast years ago and I finally got around to it. Yeah, it's going good mate. It looks incredible. It is really good. Is it weird? It is weird. There's a thing pointing at me. But yeah, it's great beer and I'm so glad to where you've got to already when people are doing this and it's been hard work mate. Yeah, it is hard work. I've seen what people don't see on the other side of that. And it's Yeah. So I've changed like the tagline of the podcast to my life isn't, you know what? I can't even remember exactly what it is. My life isn't great all the time or something like that because that is reality. Like I think people, and Hannah said this to me a while back, you don't post up much about bad stuff. And I'm like, well, that's kind of what the podcast is hopefully for. You know, like we were discussing it. You've come over for the weekend and you know, just discussing like it was only a month and a half ago I thought I was probably losing the office. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And where I had set up the podcast and I'm like, ⁓ my lord. And that's just the reality of life and business and things go wrong. And that's where, well, what you've done and what we've talked about and the things we've worked on and why you're now doing what you do is where that's your thing. It's something around the habits, the resilience, the, and that's why we're sitting here now. Well, yeah, and this is the point of getting you in is you're how old are now? 52 this month. You're 52 and for anyone watching this, this guy has ripped. He's changed a lot. When we first met, you weren't as ripped. No, I thought I was strong and fit. Yeah. And now you're like, shredded. So for any like guys watching, especially you think. Maybe you're in your 40s or late 30s or something thinking you can't turn your life around. Yeah, this man has These yeah, we're all when we all used to work together and now we like fucking hell look at Rob It's amazing to see thanks Mike. It's Yeah, I mean obviously we've kind of talked a bit about so me. Yeah, I'm 52 this year Yeah, born and bred in London as I was and that kind of slips out of me occasionally. ⁓ Working class parents come up through like a normal kid, 70s, 80s, 90s. You just went along with stuff and did things. I ended up in bike gangs, hovering on, stepping across that line one too many times. to the army for a bit, a very short period I might to add. And then spent some years doing bike stuff and motorcycle working on them and then being in the bike gangs and everything. And then it was like, I had an epiphany after one very long heavy weekend that saw me wake up in my own bed and I had to get up and go and check my bike was in the garage. got home. had to check your bike was in the garage because you've been pissed. No, other things. Okay. Lots of other things. I went to the clubhouse on the Friday and this was sort of, I think it was Monday afternoon, could have been Tuesday morning when I woke up. Session. Yeah. And I hadn't been to bed. So you can imagine the sort of stuff you're doing to keep awake. And I just sat on the edge of my bed and it took me a week to recover. I was like what? I'm going to end up in one of the places I don't want to be and I'm scared of more of being in prison than I am of being dead. So I was like, right, things need to change. I don't like bullies, never have. been punched in the face by some big scary people in my time and I don't care, I'll still get in their way probably when I'm 70. We'll get into that side of your life in a bit. And then I joined the police as you know, because that's how I met you when I left the police in 2017 after 15 years service. 10 of those. Yeah, let's talk about the police because it's a big part of your life and also a big part of is probably would I be right and say that was a catalyst for change. Yeah, coming out of that. ⁓ yeah. Massive. When I went in. It took me two years to get in, but when I'm kind of like you, like a lot of people that are now classed as good friends, when you make your mind, you set your mind to it, you're going to get it done. And it is a thing you just get done. It could take you, it took me two years because of the ups and downs and bits and bobs. ⁓ Very quickly made my mindset, I've kept my head down, get through the training. I didn't do great at school and then the whole class voted me class captain within the first week, ⁓ which was really helpful. We doing shift work at training school and I got through it. ⁓ little chocolate class Captain's medal, that's quite funny. Yeah, it was like that. What have I got to get? Oh, okay. But yeah, it was good fun, really enjoyed it. And the first four five years on borough in the Met was hard. The borough I was posted to and the place I was posted to, my dad had worked for 18 years, which was quite funny because some of the guys training me, my dad had trained. Just for clarity, so you're working in London? Yeah. a very volatile borough, I won't go into it other than that. Luckily the guys that have worked with my dad, my dad was a good guy and everyone liked him so I actually landed on my feet and I got on very quickly. But also... I mean I was powerlifting, I was a lot bigger guy then and I like getting stuck in and I hate your bullies and if you were that sort of mindset you got on well. Especially then, that's a while ago isn't it? Yeah and I'm the same guy now, I went into every situation, no whether I've got a guy standing in front of me with an axe or he just smashed his misses up on the floor or he's off his head with a smile from my hands up. and start there because then you can go up. You can escalate from there, whereas if you go in hot. Yeah, exactly. That's kind of the opposite to the military. Yeah, because of what you were dealing with things. There's a massive difference. But de-escalation is key to most things, I'd say. Absolutely. And if you could de-escalate most things, it makes complete sense. Yeah, you've just got to take a breath. And there's lots of sounds. The pink will go... ⁓ treat others like you want to be treated. Actually for me, Mike, it's the same thing. If someone comes steaming at me and I'm in middle of an argument, someone's coming to the other side, they don't care what they're wearing, they're in conflict with me straight away. So I just go in whatever situation. We had some good results. I would say probably some very serious incidents with me one on one with people with weapons at least a handful of times. I'm still here. And, and. You're handy dude. Yeah. And you've, and you showed that later on in life with jujitsu and stuff like you, you are, you are what I would class as a handy bloke. Yeah. Without like, if you rock up and you're the policeman who turns up, you're going to be like, like it's, I don't fancy having a smile on my face. Yeah. Yeah. That's the issue. Yeah. Not necessarily cause I was enjoying it, but. It's, you've been, you've gone across a line that I will hopefully never have to, but when someone's got a knife in their hand or a little axe, you are laser focused. There's no peripheral. You are laser focused on where that hand moves. And you say that I've gone across the line. Yes, I have in terms of combat, but that was for, I did one tour, that's six months, bit over six months of my life. being a policeman and having that stuff happening all the time, daily conflicts, and I don't mean conflicts with knives and things, but daily conflicts with people, the general atmospherics all the time being poor, I just think it's such a hard job. I think about it regularly and I talk to people in the police quite a bit because a lot of ex-military guys join the police and stuff like that, to me it's like, I couldn't even imagine doing it. No. It is... When I got promoted and went into a different level of stuff, that's when my stress started. Because I care. That was a big problem. Because some of the Is that a problem with the system or a problem with you? Or is it a mixture? In that job, it was a problem with me, but overall it was a problem with the system. Because you're getting, you know, the shit rolls down the hill, they're you're getting stuff coming in... orders or operations or something and it's just who's getting promoted off of this? It was so obvious. It's like really? I can get more done, my team will get more done in a day leaving them alone to be police officers. Yeah. Using that judgment. It's like let's go and I'm like I'm not, I can't, when I left one of the reasons obviously apart from the politics around the pensions being screwed because I don't know if many of you people know police officers in this country are not employed. we are servants of the Crown. So we have no employment rights. So when Theresa May at the time decided, ⁓ we're going to change your pensions, there's nothing we can do about it. So people like my very good buddy that you might meet one day, he had retirement at 49 in this eyesight to retirement at 60. So 30 years service. And a lot of people joined for that reason. I thought it was the last job I ever did. And then to have it... like switched on you last minute means that you basically joined under false pretenses. Absolutely. You've signed your allegiance to the Queen, which you've done, I've done twice effectively. ⁓ And to uphold her laws, when I joined, there had already been the political. Police has always been very political because the politicians don't like the fact they can't control us. That's why it was set up. ⁓ Vice Robert Peel. And regardless of what people say. policing is really important. Like super important. Yeah. And as you say, the stress that you come under, it used to be, you went back to the station and it was a safe place. The people around you understood what you're doing. Your governors, your sergeants, when I was a PC, even your chief inspectors and some of the superintendents I had were fantastic. But they'd gone up through the ranks. They're not known as direct, sensory bullshit that I really am against. 100 % against. Because I've been in it for long enough to be able to go. But I'm sure there are some people that do direct entry who are... Ex-military, all day long. If they're good in the military and they've done some service and then they come in, they understand how to talk to people, how to get a job done. Like you, when you go off and do stuff now and you get a team of blokes you never met. you can get them to do what you need to do. don't need to manage them because normally you pick people who are excellent. Absolutely. And I, as you do, I ended up with a very good team when I was in my last three years of traffic when I was there. Some of them had, I think, one of them had like 22, 23 years service. One of them had taught me when I was on a probation. people want to come to my team. So what you're really saying is experience is essential for policing? be high performing. Yeah and my... I come from broken. it. Yeah that's exactly right. I mean I'd agree with that on any job, any walk of life. It is very difficult because you, when I joined it was... four months, three months at Hendon, you weren't given a warrant card to the end, because that used to cause problems, at from the start. You got your warrant card at the end, you turned up and did 10 week street duties, and you had a skilled, generally at least five year service going out with you. Street cops, you know, we were out there, and I was straight out getting on with it. You we went out one radio between two, we didn't have two radios and stuff. Many a time, I'd get halfway up straight in my road on my own, when I first went to him, I'd be like, oh shit. back down, get me a radio. The most important thing you need is your radio. Number one is comms. you don't have comms you don't have anything. Exactly. You can remember how tough you are, you need that radio. You do your 10 weeks and you're wheedled out and there's people that would have left in my street juice course, think one or two of the guys left. Which is fair enough. You go for the training, you do all the life, like they try and make it stimulated, but when you're actually out there the first time doing it... and you see how the real public will actually talk back to you. I wasn't a kid, I was just 28 when I joined the job. I'd been through a lot of stuff. Growing up in council estates and you do all that, know, 70s, 80s kids, 90s kids. I've two broken relationships in the family, my mum, etc. ⁓ at divorces. I had experience of life and I've been through stuff. But you see some of these youngsters and I've felt for them and it's hard to get across to them that we're going into a domestic violence situation here. You need to be switched on. If they're in the kitchen, you don't want them in the kitchen. You don't know where all the sharp things are. They know where the sharp things are. You don't know who to believe because at the time there was still that very much of we need to get the man out of the building. But I can honestly tell you now, I've arrested way more men, but I arrested a lot of women and them out of situation. But taking a 21 year old kid, not a man or a woman, that has been brought up in what you and I might think has been like the ideal, parents are still married, they've lived in a family home. decent upbringing. Yeah, a decent upbringing, they've had a nice experience of life. dropping you into some deprived area of London and having to go and deal with a domestic with a guy that's been working 14, 15 hours. He's 44, 45 years old. He's trying to feed three kids, one of them which isn't his from his first, and he's just found out his missus has been cheating on him. And you go in there with this person who's got no experience of any of this situation, it's very difficult. But being able speak to people like you do, so I say to people, I would be, 12 hour shift, I could speak to a crackhead that's overdosed, could deal with a prostitute, I could deal with a person that's never dealt with the police before and has just had a fender bender and doesn't know what to do. I could be dealing with an MP or some Lord, all in the same day. Yeah, it's a lot, isn't it? And your brain is just... Where you're wearing the same hat that changes every... Changes the colour, changes whatever you want to call it, yeah. Yeah, And that's what I mean by it's a wild job. Yeah. I mean... It is a communication job, isn't it? it's one where you need to be... I used to be able to go out on my own when I went to the first Safer Neighbourhood, I was the first, what was it they said, I'm the first male copper on the Safer Neighbourhood team in this part. I was the first bloke, PC, whatever you want to call it. So we were the first Safer Neighbourhood thing when it came out. Safer Neighbourhood. It's basically like the old, like my dad was, a beat officer for a while. I used to go out on my own in plain clothes. 11, 12 o'clock at night, walk the streets in these rough estates. Sometimes I'll be in full, a lot of the time you got changed and said, no, you need to be in full uniform with a hard vis and your beet helmet on. So I'm okay, I like wearing my beet helmet. A lot of people are like, I I loved it. It was just a tradition thing, just what you're supposed to look like. You're a traditional guy. Yeah. And now they don't even issue with beet helmets. Yeah. So that's really sad to me, but I used go out and I walk on these streets and you've got the gangs of kids anywhere between the sort of seven and eight in a group of 20 or 30 of them up to sort of like 17, 18s that are like doing the things you shouldn't be doing. I've got to the point I'll be out walking now, I used to smoke then, I'll just take the beer and just go and sit on the wall between them all. And after a period of time I'll I know you get to know you. And in the end it was like, let's go over here, guess what you're not doing now. You're not annoying the shit out of everyone that's trying to sleep, that's got to up in the morning. And why are you out here? You're about eight. It's half past 11 at night. Yeah, well when someone talks real to you, it's different. I used to, you know, I got quite lucky. I never had them call my bluff, but a couple of the youngsters would be like that. I like, I spoke to your dad earlier and they're like that. You know, and because they're that age, you a little bit and you're a copper, there is a little bit of, but that's the only way you could get respect off of people is, you know, a lot of people. It's being face to face is what you're That's how respect is normally. Jumping in people's pockets every single time you stop them just becomes a volatile cocktail of something's going to go wrong one day. and you'll have their hand in a pocket and the little knife they've had up their sleeve is gonna come round at you. Yeah, and the way I see it, and I've never done it as a job, so I have no idea, but unless you're in and around the streets and dealing with people personally, it's a bit like business. Like you do well in business when you talk to everyone and this person helps this person out and you wanna make a deal happen so you get someone else involved and so on, exactly the same thing, right? like in a community. Yeah. Like once you know people, you know who to go to, you know, talk to, to sort that problem out. Yeah. So now that there's not as many police on the street and not their fault, just from And no stations for them to go to. Yeah. Then how do you maintain that kind of level of presence and to work things out so that the community, which is the important thing, is actually able to thrive and you know, cause bad things happen and things happen all the time. How can you deal with that when you're not actually in the community? This is the problem that when I first in the Safe Neighbours we were what they call ring-fenced. there's a thing called a mutual aid so if there's a big demonstration in London there's a whole teams that deal with pulling officers from every borough. That's like said level 2 trained like the riot training and other bits to deal with that and they're called going on aid. But when I became Safe Neighbours because it was such an important thing to be back in the community and it was recognised then by the then Commissioner and his team. We were ring fence, we couldn't be used. I know now, that's not the case. No, of course not. I've got one of my lads that I was in traffic with that nearly did some stuff, bad stuff, because he was having a massive breakdown. I've got him into Jiu Jitsu and I talked to him quite a bit and I'm trying to get him kind of what you're doing, I guess, but on just a one-to-one with him, just as a... Yeah, like a bit of mentoring. Yeah, basically. He's moved to that because he needed to get away from the situation he was in. and he's a good copper and he said but I'm being dragged off on because of my driving skills just get on with it. So where did you go? What happened with the end of policing then? So, it started in 2012 when we had our pension screwed up and I started doing acting inspector roles and going up to meetings. There were people in there that are at the higher echelons of so to say the London Mayor's Assembly site people now, which I have very strong opinions about their. Yeah, based on your experience. Based on purely on what I was sat in the room with these people, I think some of them are very misogynistic, racist, insidious little people, shall we say, that aren't. not fit for what they are. One of them certainly, I nearly choked when I found out a certain person had been made a knight. I think it's disgusting because I knew what it was like before anyway. And then that sort of thing. And then the direct entry stuff started. And then when I went to traffic, it was kind of a be all or do all bust. It was either the gun nuts, the firearms teams, which I failed the written exam, because I wrote the right answer to the wrong questions in every mist. I got the numbers wrong way around. Dumb ass. So I went to traffic because I like cars, motorbikes, petrol, and I'm a friend out there. I actually, when I was on borough, cut back to that, had a PC who... I was later involved in the shooting actually, she's done a good job. Call me up couple of times going, you like traffic stuff, blah blah blah. I'm like, and I had to point out the, I don't like doing traffic stuff. I was like, You know, out on patrol, every vehicle you stop, you use the road traffic powers to do that. And when you do a license check, I doing insurance check, it's all the road traffic stuff. It's a way in to using your coppers nose to understand. Something's not right here. And that's how you get to where you want. So then I've gone, got promoted after five years, went to a different command unit, got my bike license, like my police motorcycle course, which was quite fun. And then eventually went into traffic and I felt really at home there because there was, the traffic guys were a very professional bunch. Some of them take it far too seriously, but they need to be, you need to have the map mix. And some of them were just ex-military guys, really laid back, one on PC, just fantastic guy. No problem. Here's what it is, I'll just get on with it. And it's just like, they're the sort of people you want. And I had a really good nucleus of team around me, and I had people that could do every little thing. And I tried not to ever ask them to do anything I wouldn't do. Or I couldn't do. And if I couldn't do something, because these guys, I'm like, why don't I do it? And I also, I used to go out and patrol with them. And I think that was a bit of a, How am I supposed to write my six month and yearly report on you if I've never been out on a car with you? Yeah, You're just writing it from whatever they report. Yeah. Their paperwork. Yeah, exactly. And then I think after a while it became, to them it became just normal. I was just, can I jump in the car with you? And they're like, yeah, why not, so on. So we just go out together. So you're going out single crew, I want to go out of this place and go out. And then... Lots of the stuff that I was being told to do going back to the whole this is coming in, we've got to do this now and we've got to do that. I can understand the seatbelt and drink drive campaigns, that's what there for. But other stuff... and the PCs would be looking at me on parade and I'm telling them this stuff and it's all up on the board behind me and they're just sitting there looking at me and I'd go down afterwards directly past my office out the back and I'd go and either smoke me pipe or have a roll up or something out the back and I was smoking it and they'd come out and they'd look at me and go, you cannot lie for shit Saj. And I'm like, is it that see-through? said, you just don't lie and it's really difficult because You can tell you don't believe in what you're trying to get us to go and do. Yeah. And I'm like, yeah. Because you're genuine. Yeah. And I was sending them out to do stuff I didn't believe in. Also, I think some of the stuff, I can't quite remember the directing, was putting them on offer to, I don't know, just the complaints were going to go up. everything, like, am I putting them in? Actually, you've been to war, we go out there every day with a little stab vest on and a can of mouthwash. Right? Because that's about some people are really affected it didn't bother me but I Was putting them in harm's way so that was stress adding up then this is around 2015 I I Didn't have any kids I don't have kids and then I've got mates who want to go on holiday and they've got kids so they go so I'd like I'd do your nights for you and One of my blokes who's coming up to retirement his nights were the week before mine Yeah So I up doing like 14 nights straight through and you're on your own most of the time. That does start to have a detrimental effect So I ended up doing three sets of 14 nights and then trying to get back into some routine of doing the days and then I'd get esconded for a bit of aid. I remember doing one bit of aid and I come round the corner on Kings Road on my motorbike on the way to meet a load of blokes I'd never met before to go and do some pony aid. What do you mean by aid? So this is that mutual aid thing in central London when there was going to be a demonstration because of the skillset. yeah, you're like assisting other units and operations to We'd be part-tops somewhere. Sorry, didn't know what aid meant. Yeah, sorry. And it's, so we'd be there from dynamic road closures. need to shut this road up to split off. Yeah, that's the stuff. So 3.30 in the morning, a nightclub's tipping out on Kings Road and I've come barrelling around the corner and there's about 35 people in the middle of the road. There's a bloke flat out Polax with a guy with a cricket bat standing over him. I'm going be late. Aspout hung it over my wrist, dropped that, punched the frequency radio to tell the central lot I was going to be late, called my radio, the said I need help and then just literally flicked everything on on the bike, launched the bullhorn and just rode into the crowd. Swinging, got off my bike next to the guy that's unconscious. Judge Dredd. Yeah, and just rolled him onto his side because he's out on his back and I'm thinking he's either choking, but I'm being bounced off the side of my crash helmet with something and kicked at the same time so I'm just trying to figure out what's up if he's dead or I'm trying to keep him alive. Next thing I it's just blue lights everywhere because you're in London. But I've been out in the counties. Yeah, you're stuffed. Could be there for 20 But it probably wouldn't happen in the counties. No. Not so much. No. So, but the beauty of being a solid traffic sergeant on the way to something was... I just got there, where I was going, wrote a quick set of notes, dropped it into the other sergeant who was on the borough, because it was like, are you on the way? It's like, yeah, yeah, I'm trying to skip it. We're dealing with this, go. Yeah, yeah, was like, great. Yeah, you don't get all the bullshit attached Yeah, so that's kind of like the fun stuff. But then I was doing all these extra nights, dealing with all this, dealing with that, and then that constant dealing with people was fine. when I had an outlet that wasn't just drinking too much, eating shit food at three o'clock in the morning, self-medicating on eight or nine pints after getting up after 14 nights, very little exercise, thinking, ⁓ I can lift weight. And then what became the problem was there was no escape back at the garage, no order at police stations. Because my governor, by the way, I won't name him, but he knows who he is, was... absolute fucking legend for the whole lot of what happened next and what a nice guy. Brilliant copper, everything about him was perfect copper, he knows the knowledge he had and he was younger than me, way younger, just a good guy. He wasn't direct entry. Exactly, yeah. No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, There was lot of stuff going on in my private life. My family all kicking off and being like basically the older brother. I was getting not a lot of shit from my family going, well I can't do it, but a lot of people. just a lot going on. Yeah. you get older you get almost more responsibility in the family. Yes. And I'm exactly the same. Yeah. Same sort of similar situation. And then all this was going on. Things weren't great between me and my... basically my now ex-wife at the time and I went to bed on a Sunday night, I'll never forget, ever, to get up for a week of early turn after I'd just kind of had a couple of days off of doing a load of nights and stuff and I went to bed and about nine o'clock, shut the bedroom door, downstairs doors were shut, Mrs. was watching the telly apparently and I've gone to bed, laid there, next thing I know. About 10 o'clock I woke up and I wasn't breathing. and I'm, it's like I've gone out of sync. So I'm what the fuck's going on here? Crashed out of bed, because my vision's getting brighter and sparklier, and I'm going, because I hadn't literally, hadn't been breathing. I was like, I've got the door open on all fours, and she's heard me fall out of bed. She's like, what's the matter? And then she looked at me and gone, and I'm like, and then effectively what happened is that kicking of make that person safe and happy, because she's now panicking a bit. I don't know. And all of sudden it stopped, and I had this fluttering in my chest, and I was like. I've of known I've got a bit of a heart problem since I was a kid waking up hangovers at 17. You know, don't get hangovers at 17, I did. And my heart would be going... Yeah, working overdrive. Yeah, and thumping and missing beats and whatever. I'm like, what the fuck is all this about? Anyway, I go back to bed. As soon as I lay down and shut my eyes, it was sunny and But if I sit up, it was all right. Okay? So this went on until 3 in the morning and I got up at half four for work. Jumped on my night bike, rode 30 miles into London. only skipper on. Sound safe. like something out of some computer game, riding my motorbike, wahhh. Long before they put average speed cameras in on my route, put it that way. And one of my PCs, I walked in, I in the office trying to get the duties ready because it was Monday, no one had done it on Sunday, was like, aww. PC walked in, know what I said, fucking hell, you look like shit. I went, I've only had about an hour's sleep. And then as a Gary Skipper, everyone knows it's been a Gary Skipper, you don't have a quiet day. There never is a quiet moment. Luckily, that day, I don't think I got called out. But it was the longest nine hour shift I think I've ever done in my life. Went home, dead. was just, I had I got home. Got up next, went to bed, same thing. and I went into work the next day. Luckily my governor was in, he walked in. So I'm guessing you should have already gone to hospital. Yeah, But you'll just do it. Work's more important. I'm a big birdie copper. Yeah, your identity. then there's this... word where you're I'm the only sergeant on for my garage and I've got 15 14 PCs that are gonna be relying on me I've got a job to do I don't let anyone know the reality is I'm sure they're absolutely and the amount of times that I was on these 14 nights and there's never a central skipper or they go on if you look at a clock I was covering the foot from the center down to six around the night and that was my area in London and then they get a call going, there's no one around, they're dealing with a fatal, can you take a call in the north east please near Romford? And I'm down in Sutton. all the way to Romford from here. Right, that'd be the M25 then. That was one of times I sat there, M25 and the 530D outside lane, 151 mile an hour on the clock, and I'm just like, this is boring. And I got back home that morning and I went, it's not right with this. If I'm joined to do that sort of stuff and enjoy it, why am I not enjoying it? But anyway, go back that week, my governor said, you're not going out, what's going on? And I sort of explained to him, went, you need to go home. He said, I might take you home. I said, no, no, I'll take my bike home, I'll be all right. Made me go to the doctor's. The doctor basically went, uh, right. And then he said, I need to sign you off work. I'm not being signed off work. I've got a job to do, I can't. And he said, that's why you're being signed off work. Yeah, because you're all like. you're stressed, you're top. I'm not stressed. Now that word, as soon as you hear it, I'm not stressed. Don't sign me off your It's like when I've asked veterans about their drinking. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I don't drink too much. can handle it. What's drink got to do with it? Yeah, I can stop. And I was also putting in behind all of this. I was drinking a lot. You know, it wouldn't be... I'd get up after on the Monday to reward myself. Yes, sorry. That's a reward situation, which is, as you and I both know... It's not the right thing to do. It's not the right thing to do, but it's what you do. And it's what I grew up doing. know, it's around you every as you grow up. You just conditioned to It's just what you've known. I mean, by the time you... And now you think of it, you're like, how silly is that? I get up and think nothing of going to my local shop when I used to do like the three for five or whatever it was, getting eight 500ml bottles of ale between five and eight percent strong. I'd got up, I got into bed at 7.30, I'd be up by about 11, just because it's my first day off after 14 days of work. And I'd start on the beers after some toast. Yeah. Drink that, run out and go, do I go around the shop and get some more? Oh, I've a bottle of whiskey in the cupboard. Yeah. For anyone listening to this, and I've worked with quite a few policemen over the years, and the reward thing on having a drink every night after work is, happens a lot. in the police service, but what you need to be doing is rewarding yourself with sleep and some exercise and eating well and stuff like that because it is a self-fulfilling prophecy, drinking over and over over again and all you do is create a habit and it's really hard to break the habit. And the only way to break the habit is to change your routine and the routine means not doing the drink, but anyway, that's a whole thing and a system that you need to work out, but... Basically you just you're on that slow. Yeah, you never you never recover and Yeah You know I've now learned now that it's a few beers takes eight days to get out of your system out of your brain Not necessarily for your liver and functions about that brain things it crosses Anyway, so I've gone through this and They sent me off for my heart thing and now I've got it diagnosed properly, what it is. No, I'm serious. As long as I keep fit and healthy, stay off the Which you are. Yeah. And don't drink too much caffeine, which I've had a lot to do. I'm fine. And I know people with my condition that get to the top of the stairs and Is there a name for it? It's an MVP. It's a prolapsed mitral valve. Okay. With regurgitation. And I've got friends that are a bit older than me that get to the top of the stairs and they now have a chair at the top of the stairs. Okay, and sit down after. Because they get to the top stairs and they can't. Got you. And I'm like... And you do a lot of... I mean, you do a lot of fits. Yeah. So it's obviously you're... Am I right in thinking the fitter you stay, the better it's going 100%. Okay, so yeah. Which is the same for most things, really. And for men... We can touch on this later, but it's seriously important for your natural testosterone, for your mental health. You mean doing fitness? Yeah, exercise. Yeah, mean, if you're depressed, and I know you wanted to touch on depression, we need to get to you leaving the police. Oh, sorry, yeah, yeah. But there is no pill that is going to replace doing fitness. If you are consistently... stay-in-fit exercise and it doesn't need to be extreme, it doesn't need to be doing anything crazy but you are going to struggle to beat that in dealing with depression. Saturday now and I haven't done any meaningful form of exercise since Monday and that was just press ups, like a massive set of press ups. That's it because of work and everything else, that's all I've managed to squeeze in. But I'm conscious of that. But because I've got to the where I am now, that's not a big deal. if that makes any sense because you can have an off week. Yeah, exactly. And I don't feel bad about it. But you want the differences you'll motivate. You know what's good for you now. You know it works. 100 % consistency, discipline, which does take time. 100 % But you've got to do small steps. Yeah. So got to the police. Yeah. So after all of this, I then go, won't go into the HR failures, but I end up back at work six months later. So you were off for six months? Pretty much a total of six months. was off. That's good. Yeah, that's a lot, isn't it? Yeah, it is a lot, especially with that guilt, massive amount of guilt. I'm just on off with stress. I'm never going to be out of face when I'm not, again. But when I went back, it was like, you all back. The problem I also had leading up to all this is... I became a little bit of like the go-to size of the problems. I had more than one PC in the governor's office crying. Yeah. To talk to me. Yeah. And this is so people I work with in business and all people that have got high... level jobs or they're trying to ascend the ladder. It's one of the biggest issues. They're just taking on everyone's problem. Like, sponge, sponge. Well, I'm good at this. Oh, they're good at that. Go to them and they just get asked a million questions and they don't deal with their own stuff. Yeah. 100%. And you don't have the time to. Yeah. But, you want to be all right and you want to ascend the ladder, which is what you're normally doing, what people are trying to do, you need to have... non-negotiable tasks at the beginning of your day that you do for yourself and your career progression before you start dealing with everyone else's shit. Even if it's free things that you do in the morning or at the start of the day that are part of your projects and things that you do, they need to be done before you take on anyone else's crap. and then there need to be boundaries and you need to ask a question of the people contacting you. Okay, well does this need doing immediately? Well, no, not if they say, well, no, not really, but I need, well, guess what? It's not about you, it's about them. And then you need to, there will be times where you can do other people's work because it might be for the good of the team. But nine times out 10, it's for the good of that person. That person's just delegating and trying to. And it's always last minute because they fucked up because they forgot. Exactly, yeah. So I go. ⁓ Through this phase, my now-to-be ex-wife is leaving, she says, but there's other things happening in the background, so she doesn't, and then we kind of try and figure things out there, so I've got that stress. The family stuff in the background going on was up and down. and then. My wife at the time was like, we need to take some time out. And I'm like, hey, hold on a minute. Actually, this kind of started, this is kind of all the things that was going on whilst all this stress was building up to the point where I wasn't listening to my body, over drinking, eating shit food, not exercising. It accumulates. Yeah. And my body just went, you're not. Basically the doctor explained to me, said, you've not been listening to yourself and your body and you're now having panic attacks in your sleep. And it's your way of your body telling you, we're to make you stop. You're not stopping when we're giving you the signals, so we're to make you stop. So that was a hard set for me. And then in 2017, I took three and a half months off work unpaid and went round Africa. on an overland truck for eight weeks and then did four weeks self drive. Except in a tent out in middle of nowhere, no fences. And I think at the time as well, my ex-wife would tell you it was part of her plan to get me out of the police. Because it gave me a hard reset. Yeah, and it gave me a hard reset. I wasn't stressed. Yes, we were doing 14 hours on the truck some days to get places on these old trucks, but I'm in Africa. I'm in the middle of fucking nowhere. That's a bit close to my tent. know, like literally standing there with a woman from Australia. This is the thing, there's multinational people on these things. They come from all over. And then you jump on these trucks, you've got a tent, you get issued for the time you're on them. And everyone mucks in with jobs. And as it's Africa, the men do the lifting, the women do the cooking. That's quite funny at the start, but that got changed. Apart from the lifting, I just did it the whole time, it was easier. the reset of standing there with two bull elephants, literally less than a hundred yards from the tent. There's no fences and they're fighting and they're getting a bit closer and they're getting a bit closer and you're like, or getting up for a bush pee and being told, don't get out your tent. And I'm sorry about this if you ever hear this, but holding her hands while she's wean out the tent and then seeing a shadow to my left and just going, get in the tent, zip, I haven't finished, don't care. And then you get up in the morning and you've got tracks past your tent. Yeah, it makes reality a little bit. Your world that you've created for yourself in the place, all of sudden you're like... Yes. I've just lived out of that rucksack you've seen me take to the Arctic Spine Start and I've turned up with you now. I lived out of that for three months and I had a pillow and a sleeping bag in that. And you start to look at stuff very differently. Yes. And you start to look at life very differently. And I think it was when... We eventually got to, it was either Namibia, when I was out in the desert, or when we were high and kind of down at the Orange River that separates South Africa and Namibia. And I was sat there, I think I was having a beer one night, and I just said, I can't go back to being a police officer. It's just, I got back to work fully from 2015 and I was doing it and I'd done, oh, I'd also done my car course in 2015. which by the way is the best fun I've ever had my clothes on. So I've done lots of other things and courses that are high stress things that you need to have as what I was doing as a professional traffic officer, because you are. So all this had built up, get to the 2017, go to Africa, came back. Everyone had a bit of a vote before I'd come back as a E-Aunt. So I go back to the garage to pick my motorbike up that had been parked at the garage the whole time because I let my mate have it while I was away because I didn't want it to stop and sit there in my garage. I spent two and a half hours at the garage, got the train up, got my bike kicked, just catching up with all my old mates. Some of them were my sergeants when I was probation and stuff, chatting and it's just this bubble that they're stuck in. Yeah, you can see it. not taking myself out the golf course ball. Yeah, and all of sudden you can see it. And I'm like... and I can feel the anxiety coming thing in my chest which I think about the childhood stuff and everything. And then I get on my bike and I ride home and I'm recognising me forecasting problems that are going to happen on the way home. Again, I'm like, I'm getting angry and I've not even got out London yet. And I walked in the house, didn't even put the bike in the garage, gear off, left it in, walked in. beer. and I still had 10 days off that was my paid holiday. And I was just stood there, think, and I was just like straight on a beer. cause and effect. Yeah and also I haven't taken antacid for the whole time I was in Africa. And I just said, I'm done. And mister's like, okay, we'll figure it out. Okay. And that's when I signed up to do the tree stuff. Well, actually he went back my first morning back on an early turn, which I fucking hated towards the end. Before the PCs, before the night duty skipper had even come back in from a call he was on, I'd done all my resignation online and wrote the letter and wrote an email. So when my governor come in at eight o'clock in the morning, and I've been in since six, he was having it waiting on his desk. and I told my team, one of the PCs walked off after the parade and didn't speak for me for three days. He said, you're the only one that's kept me in this job and the only one that's got me. And he said, I don't know how to deal with you leaving. And he spoke to me on the day I left. And he was like, I'm really sorry about that. He said, that was about me. He said, but I really hated you for leaving. Yeah. that's, and that, yeah. I mean, most people commenting on anything, it's about them. Yeah, absolutely. And it was, to me, it was actually quite nice. Yeah, because he had that effect on someone. was like, all right, okay. And I was still in touch with quite a few of them. And when I left, it was the same thing. I remember my late stepmother bless her. said about my dad when he retired. When my dad used to go to work in his black trousers you could always hear him rattling and it was a box of Tums, remember the old Tums? He used to literally have them by his bed or in his pocket all the time and I used to take the old Antacids all the time just because of the shift work as well and you're eating a bacon sandwich and a cup of coffee at three o'clock in morning. just not healthy is No. And within... Within the first week of me not being a copper. It took a while for that little panic to go, And then I just didn't take them anymore. I didn't buy them when I went to Tesco. So I didn't buy them. And I suddenly, and then, weirdly, the alcohol thing. I was getting to a Friday night and I'd like to one of two beers. and I didn't, but that'd take me a while. I'd like drink and put the can down or put the bottle down and chat about something or do something. And then I'd pick it up and it was almost getting to a point where it was going warm. Yeah. So, I wasn't just going, but the alcohol was the medicine, right? Yeah. So you're using it to be like either the reward for getting through one day of policing or it was the thing to make you not remember, but suppress the. Yeah. But my memory, was shocking because one of the alcohol and shift work and you're constantly tired. don't think I ever probably got up by... Sleep deprivation is really bad for Yeah. I reckon I was probably never more... Towards the end of my service, I can honestly say I was probably never more than 60, 70 % charged any day of the week that I went And I think anyone I speak to works in the police, like generally feels like. Yeah. So what would you... Just sum it up then. your so the end of police and what and how you felt about it and then and then and then we'll move on to what you what was what you've been up to loss of identity yeah massive yeah which is the same for veterans yeah massive loss of identity ⁓ i felt not failure because i achieved a lot but there was a sense of i didn't do my 30 you know I've done 15. But is that not attached to your old man? No, dad did 28 years. 28 years. Yeah, it's 30 years. Plus he had a heart attack and everything else. Which is a big like... At 46. Had a heart attack. And the... I think it was, was in about five years, got promoted. My dad was always on about getting promoted. Keep going son. And I think after about... I mean, it's quite a... Yeah, there's a reason you were doing all this. Yeah, and then father's approval. Yeah, that's comes back to it as well. I mean, he wasn't around. He was around, but we like we didn't have that because he was divorced from my mum. I know, but you've seen him do that. And there's a big correlation and their granddad's in the war and all that sort of thing. You felt I wanted to do my part, do my bit. And then it was like, I can get paid to fight bullies. I'm going to do that. But then you don't recognise the impact it has on you as a person. and how if your partner has never been in any sort of police and military background, you change. Yeah, of course. And you are... I've had a devil's sink. I found it very difficult to be off. People were like, let's go to London for the night. I'm like... Especially during a policing job. Yeah, exactly. Because you just can't... You can see it. It's everywhere. You can just see everything. But when I left, it was like, yeah, was I a failure? No. But there was something. I should have done this. What if I'd stayed on another few months? I'd probably, I'd stayed, because my government asked me to stay till Christmas and I resigned 28 days after I went back. I left 28 days after I went back because I was also starting the college course and I'm glad I did it that way because if I'd stayed till Christmas I would have probably not left because you just get back in that routine, the eggshell going in there, the golden egg every month on the 28th and... you just start to go, perhaps I can't do any better because they drum into you that you're in a safe job, you're in a good place, don't give it up, you get your pension at the end of it, it is a massive con. Let's send you to college or school for 18 years, make you work for 50 years so you can potentially live on a pension that you can't really afford to live on anymore ⁓ for about maybe three to 10 years at the end of your life. It's just a fucking con. It's just a piece of... No, no, I get that. But, you know, most people, a lot of people waking up then what I would say, and I just want to make this comment, is if, I was to join the police and there was a direct entry way, fuck me, why wouldn't you do it? Absolutely. And I know your views on that are, but at the same time, why wouldn't you? Absolutely. If you could get in as a direct entry as a governor or a superintendent, depending on your skills, you would do it. I mean... And it makes sense for that individual. That's the problem with policing? No, that's not the individual. Why wouldn't you as an individual if you And if you've got military background, like you've done what you've done, and you've got someone who's done eight years in the military and they've maybe become a sergeant or something, they've got the nous and the skills to do that job, put them in as a government. Yes, I see what you mean. If they've just come from university... It depends where they've come from and what their life experience is. But at the same time I know know know officers in the in the Royal Marines and they come from They're not come from up like you don't mean they haven't come from anything but life experience wise not a lot Yeah, and they come in and do some miraculous things. ⁓ they're impressive Yeah, so at the same time there are some people who are able to turn the screw without much experience and still be everyone I knew of I was quite funny experience one They all looked up that's to the next rank. That was it. They came in and that's the whole that's a massive problem in, I would say, our society and the way you, you know, that's just looking after yourself and wanting to ascend and not really thinking about... Why doesn't people want to come out for a drink with me? Why don't they all leave when I turn up? But yeah, so I've left the job, that's when obviously I met you, short time after, and we started working together, which I loved. I dropped literally the same weight I've lost this time around, just fell off me in six months. It was great and I fucking loved it. I ran a tree surgery firm for eight years. We had a good group of lads. Yeah, it was good fun. Just the simple days, mate. I used to rock up, open the containers for you lot. In a very short space of time, you were giving me the keys and then I'd be like... There's an issue in itself. Yeah, yeah. Vans are all heated up in a cold frosty morning, blue sky day, perfect for me, frost on the ground, push the wood chip to one side when you'd all gone. Got a big stack of logs on it to turn into fire logs. Coffee, my pipe, sit my ass in the warm wood chip, frost and I'm like... buzzards going over my head, I'll never forget it I'm like, this is so much nicer. It's different, and tree work, know, tree work has funny individuals. Oh yeah, characters. But like, you know, we were like a group of what I would call high-end climbers. 100%. Doing big stuff all the time. I think the times I went out, when I did my climbing course, I realised how hard it is, because my best mate had been in tree surgery for about eight years at this point. Yeah. and he's a very good at, he's got all the tips for everything and anything. And he's brilliant. And he, I did the climbing course after I changed colleges and all the rest of it and actually started to go towards actually getting that low level degree I've got. And then I'll come and watch you lot get back up these monster trees doing it and I'm like, that is definitely not for me. ⁓ But that's, but I was happy with that. No, but that's smart. Yeah. A lot of people don't say that. and you, so you've then... So you've done tree work with us, you've then gone down the consultancy route and then, which is great and a clever move I would say. Because running a tree company is hard. Climbing all the time, no offence, but your age would have been brutal. Completely achievable, but to earn the money you do in consultancy doing climbing, you either need to be... amazing, yeah, it's just not gonna happen. So whereas in consultancy, yeah, was good. Yeah, consultancy is like managing trees basically. Yeah, effectively managing the tree population of somewhere or somebody. Councils and reports and builders and all sorts of things. And that's that's a, it's a good job. Yeah, it was a good job. you've done well to leave the police work with me for however long, get into that, do your qualifications and then actually have a proper job doing that. That is a good transition. And a lot of people get stuck. I want to work on the wood and I want to work in the trees for too long, maybe. Yeah. And then don't. And then maybe they'll do it later and they wish they became consultants earlier. And you've done well to transition from that to that and recognise it, which I, which is good. Yeah. It was that understanding of I can do it. I'm not gonna be as good as these guys for a few years. My body's already busted up from a life well lived. That's all it is. And I actually quite like being down here, running around doing stuff, the chip in, the track chip was the machinery side of it. Like I had to dabble in, learning like just the way it all works. I quite enjoyed all that. And it just keeps the brain going, which is important. And then, yeah, as you say, thought, well, I'll do the, I won't. College said to me, you're not doing a level two, you're doing a level four. Fuck, right, what does that mean? And yeah, that was some long days learning how to write properly and use the standards and all the rest of it. School. yeah, which I never excelled at. But I absolutely understand myself that I love learning new stuff. if I- Yeah, which is important. Same as me, and that's why I've ended up doing this and now I'm- training in EMDR therapy to help people and it's constant learning and trying to improve. Only because I want to provide a better service for everyone but it's so interesting as well. On a personal level as well for you I know and definitely for me is that whole it's a bit of a cliche isn't it but it's just that one percent Just be 1 % better. 1 % better every day. Every time in the little things. It's I do with the Jiu Jitsu stuff that I got into around the chat. A big change in 2023 in my life was the next big change. It was just that 1 % better. Turn up And if you are aware of that, then when you have a bad day and say you've still done... the necessary things that you need to do in that day that you're like, well, I've had a bad day, but I've still made progress. And that's what matters. And that's how you build consistency. And that is what I'm working with people to do, is to build those patterns that help them even when you have a bad day. Because that's the key. And that's why I have three things I do every day and I always do them. I have written down because it works for me to write things down and I tick it off. If I do them even if I have a terrible day, I've still won. Or made some progress. That there is that 1 % thing. You're it's what I've ended up doing. Trust me, when I bought this stuff to do this, I was like, how am I going to do this? Like, absolutely no idea. And you just do a little bit at a time. Work out one camera, work out another camera, work out the lights, work out the laptop and software and stuff and Jesus. But I got there by doing a bit. and a bit and a bit. Some people could have done it quicker, some people would never do it. But then I've ended up with a setup that's actually working. Much to my amazement. I've amazed myself today. But that's what I mean, but it's just small steps. If you still show up for yourself first, every time, and you've had the shittest day, you know, you've had things break down, things haven't gone right, you've not pressed the record button. on something you've been doing and you've been chatting away to it. you've been chatting away for two hours and then suddenly really... All these things, and if you're still showing up and consistently doing the things, that's discipline for one, but that's also having respect for yourself and getting that 1 % better every time. that building in your own resilience, your fortitude, which is so important. And... We touched on it a minute ago about the whole mental health thing because that's massive. Men's mental health is that, you know, there's so many, probably 30 or 40 guys have killed themselves around the world in the time we've been talking. That mental health thing for men, because my age, you're kind of in that bracket nearly, you're not quite where you are getting there. We were brought up by war babies and they were brought up by... Our parents were war babies from Victorian fathers and we had that mentality of you got a man up. because a lot of that was centered around drinking because you had the old style pubs which we talked briefly last night about the British English pubs. Those old pubs were therapy for men. Yes, there were places for them to go. negative. Yes. Because not a double, a double edged sword because you'd be drinking alcohol. But as my dad pointed out to me a while ago, Yeah, but the strongest beer we used to drink was like 3, 3.5%. It was way weaker about then. Yeah. And if you had, you were an alky if you drank spirits. If you drank like three or four beers of a night, it was only 3%, 2.5%. It wasn't as big an impact as you get now because everything's 5%, 6 % most of the time for four and a half, whatever. But those were the things that happened. And also it wasn't the social media. There's so many things you could wrap up into it. It's way different now. Yeah. And now you get guys that are... running their own businesses. They've got no time for everything because they've got kids. Kids are 14 different things at the weekends and they sit down for half an hour to look at their wife and go, we're still married, aren't we? That sort of scenario. And the wives work because, we could go into a whole conspiracy theory side of my brain for that. And the wives have to go out to work now because... Yeah, somewhere down the line, we during the Second World War that actually 50 % of our workforce had been set at home. We could be earning 50 % more tax out of these people. Let's encourage women to go to work all the time. now we anyway, let's not go down that route yet. The exercise brings you out of depression. Now, we touched on this in one of your emails and it was the gold, what's the name, Elizabeth something rig rug. She talks about depression. Kruger. Kruger. Yeah. And there's also a book that I've read by Dr. So you're talking about the grief cycle. Yeah. then depression coming out of either a traumatic response or it's to do with lots of things. Quit. The reason I started with that is because the grief cycle shows when you quit alcohol, you grieve the loss. It's a loss of you. Yes. A part of you that you're giving up. So I show people the grief cycle because then they can look at it and go, ⁓ actually, I remember being there and now I'm here and then we can see the path that they're going on and it's just a good representation. So I think in the book... works for lots of things. Yeah. up. yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Quitting alcohol, PTSD. So depression of giving up something, part of your old self. Dr. ⁓ Scott Peck in the book. ⁓ my goodness, The Road. No. Have you not got it written down? I might actually have it written down. Let's have a look. That's why you bought your little book. the book down. The Road Less Travelled was done in the 1970s. It's like one of the biggest selling books that people don't really... It's really very, very relevant, but a lot of it's to do people who've got kids as well. But The Depression Cycle. Yes, it's around grief, it's about generally the loss of something. Yeah. And it's absolutely 100 % natural part of humanity and you should allow that to happen. Yeah, is. I what happens is with alcohol, drug dependency, alcohol dependency, porn dependency, fucking I don't know, whatever dependency, shit food, no exercise, whatever. When it becomes the problem is that you, because we don't recognise that cycle, because we were brought up not to really talk about stuff like that. you suck it in and you keep holding it and I just keep holding it and just keep holding it until people go pop them up, commit suicide or do something stupid. When you've gone through that depression cycle and you understand it and you come out, it... It's when you start to give up something that you know is bad for you, but it's a habit. If you're comfortable with it and your friendships are based around this thing. realise actually that's normal. I've seen a lot happier these days. Well, yeah, I've just been through some stuff. I don't do that anymore. And I weren't sure about it. But now I feel I'm in a better place than I was back then. then that light bulb moment kind of happened for me. to do with the alcohol. It's awareness. When I left the job and I was working for you, we might have a go to a pub on a Friday afternoon and have a pint after work or a shandy or something because we were driving a lot of times, orange juice and lemonade because it was so damn hot and sweaty, you just wanted some electrolytes back in you. I realised I wasn't, I didn't go after alcohol as much, weirdly. And I loved the taste of it, I used to brew my own barrels and all the rest of I love it. But I don't like the alcohol. And I was suddenly like... I've noticed my heart doesn't play around as much anymore. I'm doing okay, I'm this, and the other. And then you start to go to places that you've always gone with people that you've always known and you don't drink alcohol. And I noticed after a very short space of time, this mainly happened in 2023, which is not too far ago, long ago, I woke up, I mentioned it last night, I woke up one day and I sat on the side of my bed and I had mirror and I could see myself and I was like, holy fuck. So many people have done that. And I just went, I've talked the talk all my life, it's about time I walked the walk. And I used to power lift, I used to train a lot, I used to help people training. I know what the nutrition is, I know what stuff's shit for you. Yeah, and this corresponded with me... starting to do what I was doing and leaving the trees as well. So we were talking regularly. You were like basically starting to be honest about yourself. Yes, 100%. Calling your own shit out. Yes, yeah, basically. was like, right. Same for me, you know, in some ways too. Yeah, And I just went, right, screw this. So that was around the March, beginning of April, 2023. And by the Christmas that year. I went to a charity board my brother runs every two years and I put my tuxedo on and went oh shit I've dropped five inches around my waist and the suit looks ridiculous but I've got to wear it because I've got no choice I should have tried this on last week not the day I need it I dropped 37 pounds in weight about two and a half stone something like whatever it was just over two and a half stone so just for the audience what did you do to drop the weight once you were being honest with yourself, looked at yourself and gone, ⁓ dear. Alcohol? Yeah. Straight away. That was the first thing I had to go. Yeah, it a lot of calories, especially in beer. And also the mind. I know how alcohol bad was for you, and I've known for years, and we've touched on things about that. And I said, right, I need to stop this alcohol. But we're really good at lying to ourselves. 100%. I could have told you that when I was 18. Exactly. It's not our fault because from the early age I can remember, double diamond adverts, you are surrounded, bombarded as more more social, more and more stuff on the phones has come. It's everywhere and it's subliminal almost. So you became, part of our culture. 100%. The pub. So anyway, our car went... I used to eat a lot of pasta and bread and croissants. I love sweet tooth, think I've got half a cake sitting over there. I think nothing of when I'm on a working day, having a Mars bar, Snickers and a sticky bun. I justify it, I've got to go home now. ⁓ Go home, a mate, three people's worth of pasta and stuff like that. Bear in mind, everyone I knew, everyone said, you're looking good mate, you've been training again, because I was a big guy and I carried it well, because I'm six foot tall, I was 15 and half stone. That doesn't seem that big. And I'm now 13, regularly stay at 13. Yeah, which is lighter than me. Yeah, and I'm five foot, eight, nine, if I'm lucky. But my body wants to be this size. So that was in, and then I started running again. I can't run, my knees are terrible. and it was a mindset. No, and I think people think if you, especially talking to me, because I do some miles, they think that they're like, I can't run, fair enough, but it isn't the only way. You don't need to run to do it. There's lots of low impact stuff. Go out and do two. Swimming, cycling, even walking. There's so many things you can do. You don't just need to... I always have this thing where people when they start initially talking to me they're like look I don't want to run and I'm like I'm not going to make you run. My ultras and races I do and stuff like that is an individual thing like I do it because I enjoy it and it's good for me. That's the iron mindset mate. But that was the other thing it was literally I looked at myself I was 48 years old. No hang on yeah I was 48 years old at the time. And I just went, I looked at myself and I just got very honest. You know, the bright light on, look in the mirror, standing in my pants, it wasn't pretty. And I was like, I should be in much better shape than this. I've trained all my life. I've done several different martial arts. I've played rugby, sports. I, what? So what did you actually do then? So people can understand because you are like, you are genuinely shredded. strong dude, me and the lads at work are like, what? Like when we saw you after a while, like with your top off, we're like, holy shit. Like what has happened to Rob? So you've clearly done something not extreme in some ways. So what have you done to be who you are now? What are the things? The consistency? Yep. That's, be all and end all. Of all of it. Of all of it. doesn't matter. And that's... to go back to COVID, but I did... So in the July of that, by the time I got to July, I dropped a stone without thinking about it. And then I started Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu. Okay. So Jiu-Jitsu. Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu. So quit and drink. Jiu-Jitsu. Food. Changing your food. Sleep. Sleep. Yeah. Which you weren't doing when you were in the police. And I realised I was... just stay up a longer, what's that say? So I've got very strict myself. So really it's simple stuff. It's simple, basic shit that you have to do. And the boring stuff is what makes it work. Fucking go to bed. Build in the boring. Mark says. Yeah. It is literally learn to say no. Yeah. Or what is it? Jo Mo. Joy of missing out. I'm not coming to the pub with you. because I don't want to waste 50 quid to stand and watch you lot get drunk or talk about the same thing over and over and over again. So when I, when this all really started to happen, yeah, talk about the same thing over and over again. I put it down to like gold panning. Right. So you go to these pubs and places and you're like, I'm not drinking because I've started to make myself drive to places because I knew I wouldn't drink and I'd drive home because I wanted to get up and train in them all because that had become. I had the motivation, I'm 48, but if I'm 50, I need to be in good shape. So I had 14 months to do it. That was my motivation. Discipline and building a habit then gets you, once motivation drops, because you can motivate a five year old kid to go and scrub his teeth, once that motivation drops off, the habit and the discipline you've built from that is what keeps you there. That's it. There's no secrets to it. Sort your fucking diet out. Sleep. So one of my sayings is I say, sleep like an adult male lion. Yep. Right. Eat like an adult male caveman. Yep. And train like your fucking life depends on it. If you do those three things, you will change your body shape because your brain will change and your mind and you will go, I can't sit here and watch this shit again while she's watching that. Oh, I can't do this. So this is an important point because some people learn in different ways. Some people come and see someone like me and we help improve. We do things simple like what you're saying. I do awareness, resilience and commitment. Three simple steps and we work through that and you go through a bit through a journey and you move from here to here and then afterwards you're like, what else can we do? But you like to read. So what have you read that has really helped you? Because for some people they want to know what are the books that actually make the difference. Because you're someone who's gone from No offence, little bit overweight, not that fit, not doing fuck all. In a couple of years, you're a shredded 50 year old who's grappling with kids. Like there's massive difference. And I ran, I just want to point this out, I'm not a runner. I fell over twice because my knees go out, but I ran 10 miles before I was 50. And that was huge for me because my knees were literally cut out and I'd fall over. The nerve, whatever goes on down there anyway. But yeah, basically. So what have you read? I know you've got a list of books. I've got a list of books. There is some on here that aren't on here. ⁓ I know there's a, the judgment's out fully on it, but one of the, I read the David Goggins book. One of the first ones he did. Can't talk about knees Yeah, talk about these. Also read. And for some people that will work. Yeah. Stolen Focus by Ayan Hari. Massive change in this mindset. I've changed my mindset, which is what put me onto that book weirdly. And I was like, right, I think maybe my ex-wife got it. I see you got recommended by someone. said, with all the stuff you're doing, you might want to read this. I'm like, okay, it's a book I like reading, learning stuff. Atomic Habits. Yep, Clear. That's really good, James Clear. Why my company's called Atomic Rambo. Yeah, yeah. Before that, in 2020, I'd written, read, read, read the Mark Manson books. Mark Manson. Satellite of Not Giving a Fuck and Everything is Fucked, right? Yeah, yeah, I And I bought them in an airport in India on the way back when the Covid was happening. They were really good and I like things like that. And the way the things your brain changes. ⁓ yeah, Can't Hurt Me, David Goggins, Deep Work, Cal Newport, Stolen Focus and then off. See like the David Goggins book, I've read it. That doesn't work for me. No, absolutely not. For me, I'm like, meh. Like I don't. But then there's too much association with what I used to do and him. And then I'm also do ultra running and I have a very different way of looking at it what I do. Just to say, but I can absolutely, there's a reason he's so popular. I can absolutely see why people are like, be more like Goggin. I can understand it. And this is my point is there isn't always one way forever. There's lots of different. people learn in different ways, people respond to different stories and that's kind of the point of the podcast is there's lots of different types of people and there isn't one way to, you know, skin a cat average, those books alongside some of the more chimp paradox, chimp paradox, that's on my list. That was very good. That's very remember you telling me Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's about the whole, when I was, you know, going through what I've been going through in my private life. For relationships? Yeah, for relationships, definitely. And also for relationships for men, this last year, I read Dead Bedroom Fix by DSO, Dad's Starting Over, who's also a guy called Ralph Brewer, he's actually his real name, but he's also on our Red Rebuild. And also a book by Dr. Robert Glover, No More Mr. Guy. Now for guys... No More Mr. Nice Guy is one that a lot of people have referenced to me. Yeah. Yeah. It is. And we both fall in that category. Yeah, yeah, yeah. At certain times. 100%. With my ex, what I went through, no boundaries. Boundaries, yeah. Yeah, and that's, it was huge. But the Dead Bedroom Fix led me to the, because he references it in that, and I went, I'm get that and read that, and that was like, whoa. Yeah, yeah, yeah. This was easy to read. Bit too close for comfort. Yeah, over 100%. There's lot of it, and you get, I can feel myself getting a bit flushed, and I'm like, that's a bit embarrassing. I used to do that all the time, shit. But yeah, to do, and there's other things, I like reading all sorts of stuff, but the biggest thing, it was literally... It's a mindset change. If people say, don't have the time for this. Okay, if you are doing shift work and you've got kids and you're running the house and your Mrs. Is working, I get it, right? I know hundreds of people like that. I've met my life in the police, right? I don't care if you do shift work and you work in a factory, enough. Try being a copper and doing shift work and trying to run and then go. Yeah, you're not going home after 12 hours because there's been a medic, there's been something happening in London, old helicopter crash or ambulance crew, firemen, nurse, Yeah, your 12 hour shift has now just become 18 hours and don't worry And that's why we have 20 % off for anyone that works in services. Yeah, that's really nice of you to do that. It helps. But there are 24 hours in a day, you're never getting back. Yesterday, that's history. Tomorrow's not a proven thing. today is real. That's the only real thing that's happening is right now. Tomorrow not real yet, it doesn't happen yet. Agreed. And you can't change what happened yesterday. Yeah. And I started looking at things and I took a job working for a company when I was doing the consultancy for a while to get myself ginned up a bit more and actually see if I wanted to work for a company again. Because I've been in stuff. I've been self-employed before the police and then I've been in the police. You had the beautiful thing of working for me for so long. Absolutely. And I enjoyed working for you. I really did. My different type of management skill. Yeah, absolutely. And it worked and it kept us all honest and kept us doing the job and you didn't ever have to get shouty and sweary. And that's it. I was doing... I need to read that. No, mum, it's a nice guy, a bit more. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. That'd be good. But I just thought, with this mind, it's a mindset change. you've got... And I was like, right. And I found myself in the gym at quarter past six in the morning. But I was one, was, shit, I wanna get home and go to the gym before I started work. You know, if you work for a company, Monday to Friday, because there's loads of people who do it, and they do an eight and a half hour day, and you've got 24 hours. Right, so you get eight hours in bed, and if you work from home, you're have nine hours in bed, which is even better. Get your ass into bed at 10 o'clock at night, and it's the usual thing. What was it? Don't eat three hours before bed. Don't drink two hours before bed and don't touch anything device-wise or telly an hour before bed. Read a book, for fuck's sake. Terrible. Yeah, most of us are. The fridge is open. I'll put my hand in and see what comes out. Because don't get me wrong, I've lost a lot of weight, but fuck me do I eat. And I can eat a lot. But again, it's down to eating the right stuff. But you change your mindset. I'm going to try and put a picture up of you before, if we can find one. Yeah, I'll get a better one than that candid snapshot you took of me before. Fucking hell. Yeah, the mindset change of I've just had enough. So many men, because I'm going to talk about men, that I've spoken to, of going through this. And one guy that wanted to leave the police was trapped. He couldn't. He loved his wife and his kids. she earned a low paid job because she looked after the kids and they wanted to live and he couldn't leave the police to re-skill and he wanted out and he had 12 years left. That's horrific and he can't get out. Yeah because you feel like you're trapped in your life. I'm very lucky and fortunate in my life I've never been afraid of change. A lot of people are afraid of change. Yes I got comfortable in certain jobs but then I left. I've done so many stuff. Mate I've been a road sweeper. I've been a dustman. I've delivered pizzas. Just to, so didn't wanna, cause I didn't wanna ever go on a dull, it's just a, you know, one of those things, I just, a personal thing. But just because I'm like. I'll do something different then. I'll jump from one thing to another until I find the thing that I like doing. Or I just accept that this is a job that I can do and I'll do well at it. And that means what I'm doing, I can actually enjoy my life, not be a slave to something. So when I change the mindset and decide to change me, I'm of an ilk that I get into a certain age and I don't want to be a cash cow for the pharmaceutical company. going forward, right? Because that's all you become. And I know blokes my age, younger than me, that are on four or five tablets a day. And a simple fix to their diet and exercise, they would stop taking those tablets. Get rid of pretty much all of it. Yeah, depend on what's wrong with them. Yeah. I'm not saying everyone go out and be an ultra runner, go out and start doing Brazilian Jiu Jitsu, because Brazilian Jiu Jitsu... I've had lot of injuries and also you get very close and cuddly with men. It's not called a struggle cuddle for anything. And you're fighting in your pajamas when it's 35 degrees outside and it's horrific. me with my structural problems, have pins and needles in here that come in from my neck and everything else, my mobility, not necessarily my flexibility, but keeping my mobility. Because how many times have you walked down the street and heard a parent go, stop running? Yeah, yeah. Our kids. And I want to go fucking let the kids run. Yeah, it was one reason why I think I can still run is because I was just free when I was young. Absolutely. I did so much running when younger. Yeah, yeah. And it adapted my life and saved I don't want to get to 75 and be, it might happen, but trip over and break me in. Now you want to give yourself the best chance. Absolutely. I want to be... the bloke that's causing the nurses an absolute pain in arse. it's never too late to realise that even if it's in your 40s. What's that guy? He's in the Guinness Book of Records. I should have written it down. for, it's the indoor rowing and he's in his late seventies. He'd never really been into exercise or anything and his son that was living at home when he was, so this guy was in his sixties, I think. And it might have been around COVID times, I don't know. But he had to go to his indoor rowing machine. I like this. He's in his seventies now and he's now a world record holder. I haven't spoken about on the podcast much but my granddad goes out regularly on bike. My grandma walks 10k every single day. They're in their 80s and they're awesome. They're like my inspiration and I've seen them the way they've lived and my granddad, didn't really start training on the bike and stuff till he was 40 odd and I've seen what he was able to achieve in that period which was a lot. And then I'm like well... I, yes, I had a break, a big break, 10 years or whatever of any real exercise other than tree work. This is a fucking daily exercise. Yeah, but not doing like what I do now, but then to come back knowing, you know, yes, I'm not competing like I was when I was younger running. I'm not as fast, but I'm still competing. I'm still doing big stuff. I'm still climbing mountains. And I think what you do, yeah, you've got a competitive edge to it. and the Arctic spine race. don't do it for that at all. mega. Thanks mate. yeah that's insane. I mean I haven't even experienced that. I'm gonna go put it on Yeah, Rob came with me for the start of the Arctic spine. Which was amazing to have someone come with me to the beginning and then obviously I've then raced 293 miles in the Arctic. And you've gone home. Yeah, and I've gone home. But I've got the bug now. I'm doing the Dude of 66. I love that. The baby one. Yeah, and they're great people, the spine race and I met, know, was just, was just an awesome event and to be able, we were discussing this yesterday, but for me, it's like a natural urge to move from A to B in, drag all your own stuff, the people that out. It's just awesome. Yeah. It feels like natural. For me living in, a city and live in that environment which I have for many years is just not natural to me. For me it's out in the mountains running, dragging environment. Exactly. We're not designed to be living in these things, they've been designed for us. We all know that. And unfortunately living on this island, we've got no choice. Yeah, but it's beautiful island. It is a island. you know, yeah. But the... So what do you want to end with Rob? We've got... Just fucking do it. Yeah? Just look at yourself in the mirror and go at yourself, I'm not happy with this. And if you are one of these guys that works regularly and you've got this going on, even if you've got a family, What impact is that going to have on your child's life seeing their dad put on a pissy, horrible, rainy, horrible day, put on a fucking pair of trainers and a t-shirt, go and stand in the back garden and skip him right for 15 minutes? or go out on a walk and a run. Yeah, for me it's, are you being an inspiration or are you the someone that the kid's gonna look at later? You might be an inspiration later because they might not wanna be you. Or do you want them to be like, I saw my dad or mom doing this. natural thing to do. Yes, because for me, I've looked at, like my mom's amazing and done amazing things. But you know, I don't wanna be like my dad. Yeah, you know, he left before I was born. I don't want to be that guy. You know, I don't. You won't. That's my inspiration. Yeah. And my inspiration is like my granddad. Oh, yeah. Or my stepdad. Yeah. And you know, like people like that who I saw him hammering out 100 miles on his bike, nearly averaging, you know, in the late 20s, nearly 30 mile an hour for 100 miles. You're like, that's inspiring for me. Yeah. And I... But then who do you wear? Yeah. Who do you want to be? And if you're not got kids and you're just doing it... Stop judging yourself by everybody else. And I think I put it on an email to you. The Michael Jackson man in the mirror. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But you actually in the email, you actually put, this is a bit of a funny reference. But it does make sense, yeah. And I'll change the word in it, the, to your. And if you want to change, no one's going to change it for you. You've got to look at that, that's the only person. David Goggins' Accountability Mirror, whatever you want to call it. If you don't like the person looking back at you in a mirror, there's only one person that's going to change it and that's you. That's it. You can get some help in either mental health or some coaching or... Alcohol stuff, speak to you. Look you up on the atomic Rambo. You're on Instagram, you're everywhere, that is the way that people like you that have been there, that have got a genuine true story... that what led you to where you were and then what led you to get out of it. Yeah. yeah, there's just so many good people. The thing is it's not even working with me or us or whoever. It's, it's, it's knowing there are so many good people out there who want to help and who more importantly have probably, and that's the whole point of this podcast is there's, there's people that have experienced probably what you're going through. Yeah, like they're out there and they're happy to help and stuff and you know, it won't always cost money either ⁓ You know, you can read books like you said, that's why I want you to read them. You can listen to podcasts There's a lot out there. So you can literally those three things the sleeping the eating the training. Yeah, just do those things simple Stop eating crap literally Takeaways are very expensive, just eat real and say if you are in the police and you do those things, it just makes your job easier. Fuck me, does it make the job That's the crazy thing. I often wonder, with my mindset now... ⁓ you'd be a much better, I'd be a much better soldier. Yeah, how much would I actually want to leave the police because I'd be able to deal with things in here if I wasn't drinking? Hindsight, mate. It's a wonderful thing. What I'll say to you is, yeah, I'm me, I'm the, I know... When I look in the mirror, one I've never looked like this ever, I can go in the gym before I train. Pull ups? No problem. I can do 14 wider grip pull ups off the bat. I couldn't do that when I was in my twenties. I'm not saying everyone's the typical, oh do you to do jiu jitsu? It's really good for your mental health because you can't think of anything else. And it connects your feet back to your hands and your head. So you get that going on. But just do some... I do press ups, I a set of 300, right? Three, five times, four times a week, with a weighted vest on. That's not 300 in one go, by the way. I can do 50, then I have to kind of go, I can't get up off the floor. But that's in my house. I'm not going anywhere to do that. Put your kid on your back, put your missus, put your feet on them while you're watching the telly, and just go ad break and doing as many press ups as it is for that ad break until I can't do any more. There's a lot of simple things you can do. But I would say, if I could tell one thing, Paul, what would I say to people to stop? I would say, if you're a heavy drinker, or you drink on a regular basis, like every other day, or weekend, whatever, because you'll be surprised at how much you drink if you don't think you drink that much, stop drinking. If you're not much of a drinker anyway, and you can take it or leave it, sort your fucking sleep out. If you sleep eight hours a night regularly, problems dissolve. And your health will get better because the old, it's been batted around, my blessing my sister knows it firsthand twice how bad it can be. You've got hundreds and hundreds of problems until you get seriously ill. So look after this. You get one go at it, you get one trip around the sun every year and it'll just be keep getting better. Yeah, I agree. And I've got blokes at Jiu Jitsu, he's a black belt now, he's 66 years old. I can't beat him and he's smaller than me. Yeah. I want to be, I don't want to be like him, I want to be better than him. Yeah, nice. I don't judge myself by other people because I can't judge myself by a white belt who's 25 years old, who's a personal trainer. and competes against me, who's twice his age and doesn't compete, I'll do it to keep fitting out, and he's our work. ⁓ That's strong. But just, sort your sleep out, stop that drinking alcohol. Thanks, Rob. I got you. I agree. And thanks for coming on. I genuinely really appreciate it. You're a legend. Legend in my own underpants. A legend in my own underpants. Thanks. Cheers, buddy. You're a legend.