Latest / The Virtual Couch / You're Not Broken, You're Human: Exploring Rising Depression Rates w/Nate Christensen, APCC

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You're Not Broken, You're Human: Exploring Rising Depression Rates w/Nate Christensen, APCC · The Virtual Couch

0:00
Music.
0:21
Hey everybody, welcome to episode 387 of the Virtual Couch. I am your host, Tony Overbay.
0:27
I'm a licensed marriage and family therapist, certified mindful habit coach,
0:30
and I am excited to welcome back Nate Christensen to the podcast today.
0:35
And we'll get to that in just a minute, but first I wanted to just by way of introduction
0:39
give a little heads up about what we're gonna talk about today.
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We are gonna talk about depression and anxiety, and I go into one of my favorite things to talk about,
0:47
which is the brain as a don't get killed device.
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And so I just wanted to talk briefly.
0:52
I didn't expand, I think, too much on some of the concepts that I believe are very important
0:57
when talking about depression or when the concepts of things like suicidal thoughts
1:01
or ideations come up.
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So let me address that. And before I even get to that, of course,
1:05
go to the show notes and you can find links to everything. My marriage course reboot is coming up very soon.
1:10
And I would really just encourage you to sign up for my newsletter
1:13
because that is picking up in, what's the word?
1:17
Consistency.
1:18
And then follow me on social media, TonyOverBay underscore LMFT,
1:22
or on TikTok at Virtual Couch and a lot of other places, Facebook, that sort of thing.
1:26
But here's what I wanted to get to before I invite Nate on for the interview today,
1:31
that we're gonna talk about the concepts that people are feeling more depressed than ever before,
1:35
even though we are talking more about mental health.
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So that seems a little bit like a paradox.
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And so I really want you to, if you can, think of your brain like this,
1:47
that it is basically, it's our own personal bodyguard, and it is always on high alert,
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and it's checking out the world, and it's making sure that we're safe,
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or it's really trying to.
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And when we find ourselves in tough spots, maybe it's a bad relationship,
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or it's a job that we can't stand, or we don't feel connected, again,
2:04
with our partner in life, we don't maybe have the skills that we need
2:07
to feel very confident in our parenting ability.
2:10
We might be going through a significant faith struggle, or faith journey, and we might be just starting.
2:16
Realize that that life can be a little bit more tricky than we thought but our brain is always on high alert,
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and we're gonna find ourselves regularly in tough spots and,
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Or just feeling stuck in life and so then our brain will start to sound the alarm and that alarm can first be.
2:33
Anxiety or it can be depression and and I really believe it's the brains way of saying hey something's not right
2:38
So we probably need to address it we need to take some action.
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But then, what action? And the more that that alarm starts to sound,
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sometimes the worst that we can feel, it's my emotional baseline theory,
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when you feel like you have just a lack of control or certainty, or if you just are starting
2:58
to feel overwhelmed or stuck,
3:00
that you can start to, your emotional baseline lowers, but all the things that are going on around you
3:05
are happening just in real time.
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And so the worse you feel, it can even feel more intimidating and more overwhelming to even try to reach the tools
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that you need to help yourself or to get out of certain situations
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or to make more of a sense of purpose in life
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or to show up in a better way for yourself so that you can show up better in your relationship
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or in your parenting or at your job.
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And when you start to feel even worse or your baseline lowers, you can really start to feel
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less of a connection with the divine, with God, with those around you.
3:37
And so, again, your brain is a don't get killed device. It really wants to live.
3:43
So it's gonna sound the alarm, and that alarm, when it sounds like anxiety or depression,
3:47
can initially make us feel worse.
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So in a nutshell, these feelings of anxiety or depression, as tough as they are, it can be pretty empowering
3:55
when we just realize that's your brain trying to nudge or push or even punch our way
4:00
into making some changes.
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And sometimes, though, these feelings get so intense.
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Because we do feel stuck, that they can even start to lead to just, I mean, I feel like there's almost this path of, I call it the, the, I hope I don't get hit by a meteor when I walk out the door theory. So it's somebody that says, Hey, I'm not suicidal. But if I walk out this door, and, and I just get hit by a meteor, if I just don't wake up tomorrow, you know, I don't know if that would be a horrible thing. And I feel like that's the brain's still low key way of saying, we really need to do something. And I've tried anxiety, I've tried depression, and, and it doesn't seem to be working. So let's, let's give some other theories
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a shot. And I think that that meteor theory has a close cousin that I almost want to deem
4:40
the terminal disease theory. And I'm not trying to dismiss anybody that has a terminal disease
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because that is, I work with people that have gone through that and it's such a, I can't
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even begin to describe what that is like for the person or for families that are going
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through that. But sometimes people's brain even says, you know what, I almost wish I
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would get something like that because then maybe I could slow down or maybe people would
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actually pay attention to me or I would have people would have more empathy for me or sympathy
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for what I'm going through. And again, if I look at that, that it's again, it's the
5:10
brain yelling, wake up, we need a change. It's begging for us to make a shift, maybe
5:16
a big shift or a makeover in our lives. And so if your brain gets to into even thinking
5:22
about suicide, suicidal thoughts or ideations, I think it's crucial to understand that this
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Is your brain screaming out for help?
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It's not the answer, but it's a sign that something in our life needs a massive shakeup.
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And I've worked with people that have survived suicide attempts.
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There's a documentary out there about people that have jumped off the Golden Gate Bridge.
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When they let go, their first thought was, oh man, this isn't what I wanted.
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So if you're feeling like that right now, first off, know that you're not alone.
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And second, you are absolutely not broken. You are human.
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We're actually born with everything that we need to get through life and then life's journey
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In an ideal world, it's about finding out who we are. It's not fixing what's wrong with us.
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It's about becoming and being.
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So if you're struggling with thoughts at any point, whether it even is the,
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I don't care if I get hit by a meteor or a terminal disease doesn't sound horrible,
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or if you're struggling with thoughts about ending your life,
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I am begging you, please reach out for help.
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And you are not a burden. You're not gonna make somebody feel worse.
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That's just the stories that your brain's telling you
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because the irony or the unfortunate thing that when you are in this lower emotional baseline state that then you
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feel worse. And so then your brain is having to throw these big Hail Mary passes of things like the meteor theory or suicidal thoughts or ideations. But,
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then you're still in this emotionally baseline low place. That wasn't a correct sentence.
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But so it can be really hard to reach out for help, but that may be not it may it is what one needs to do,
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So if you're struggling again, please reach out talk to somebody do not go through this alone,
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Because your your own thoughts are gonna they could they could get the best of you.
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So there's help out there. There is hope. So remember your brain's actually trying to do its job
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It's trying to keep you safe, but it might feel really hard and scary right now
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But it's just your brain saying i've tried everything. We really need to make some changes,
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And as we learn more about ourselves on this journey, please remember you absolutely do deserve to be seen, to be understood, to be loved, and you're not broken, you're human.
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And the reason why you do the things you do is because you do. And once we can kind of get to a place of acceptance or that happened, now what do we do moving forward?
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And the faster you can figure out what matters to you,
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not what I think I'm supposed to do, and you start down that path,
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you're still gonna be met with a lot of your own yeah buts internally in your mind,
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but then eventually you go from this place of I didn't even know what I didn't know
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about myself, about mental health, about life.
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And then now that I know, I don't always do what I know that I need to do or would make me happier
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or give me more of a sense of purpose, and that can be a really tough place to be
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because then we get to beat ourselves up and say, now that I know, why am I not doing?
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Well, it's because you're human.
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And then eventually we get to this place where we're doing things more than we weren't before,
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and now things are really starting to shift.
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And then eventually we just become, and that's a pretty nice place to be.
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Your life is still filled with a lot of things that can be tough, and you still have these thoughts
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and feelings and emotions, because again, you're human, but you return to this home base
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of knowing that you are enough, and that you are lovable, and you're gonna be okay.
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So enough of that introduction. Let's get to this interview with my colleague, Nate Christensen.
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Music.
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Do you have any idea what number of time this is, Nate Christensen? Mm. Four, five.
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I think it's more. Oh, yeah. I'll find out. I will have said that in the intro.
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But welcome back. Thanks. Thanks for having me back.
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What has been going on with you?
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You know, the therapy world is new, exciting and ever changing.
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And how OK, how long have you been doing it now?
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Over two years, I've been working for you now. OK, this feels silly.
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You're a therapist and we have supervision together and those sort of things.
9:07
Yes. OK. Maybe before we even jump into today's topic, any thoughts around, is this what you thought it would be?
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How is it different than what you thought it would be?
9:16
Yeah, it is different than what I thought it would be. I find that my view on helping people with mental health and my own mental health is constantly evolving.
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Yes.
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So you're learning, you're incorporating new and interesting information,
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and then you're kind of practicing things with yourself.
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And then things that work, you kind of bring and share with your clients,
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and then they practice, and sometimes it's helpful and sometimes it's not.
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And so, it's, I like the saying that I think it was one of my professors that said that
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he views therapy more as an art than a science because everyone's so different.
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Yes. And so, we're all our own canvases. Yes. And so, we're working with so many different things with each person.
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I do like that. And I've been saying, it's funny because you're year two and I feel like,
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oh, about 15 years in, I started figuring this out. I mean, maybe not that long, but it really is.
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If you really love the work, I'm jumping in there as much and doing, oh, I'm doing
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self-confrontation, or I'm judging and observing in the same frame, and I don't like sitting
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with discomfort. do turn to.
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Playing more online bingo than I should, or those sort of things.
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That online bingo, man. Gets you every time. I know, but it's like, I'm really good. Yeah. Well, until then I lose all my money.
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Okay. So the matter of fact, can I out you a tiny bit from one of our clinical supervisions? Yeah.
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I thought it was so interesting when they were, I think, and maybe I've made this whole story up,
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but I felt like you came in and it was after we had been talking a lot about the Marshall Rosenberg's
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Nonviolent Communication. Yeah. I love that book.
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And it was almost like, I feel like you were saying, I now I can't unsee and how we all observe and judge.
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Do I remember that correctly?
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You do. What has your experience been with that?
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Well, you know, he makes the point in the book that the English language has a lot of judgment built into it.
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Okay. And so some other languages don't have, you know, languages don't translate perfectly
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from one language to another.
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And so I was not aware of how frequently I am using language that has judgment built into it
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when I'm not even intending to be judgmental.
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Do you have an example?
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Oh yeah, like just earlier today I was talking with my wife and we were talking about trying to work on some things
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with my daughter and so I'm speaking, and as I'm speaking I'm evaluating what I'm saying
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and I'm stopping and I'm having to re-say it again.
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It's very inefficient and it's clunky, but I could see how you could eventually get to a place
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where if you do it well it makes communication a lot better and people don't feel threatened by what you're saying
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because you're owning your stuff
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and you're just sharing an observation as opposed to using language.
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That could be perceived as critical. Yes.
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So tell me if this one rings a bell, too. One thing that I'm noticing more is even just the phrase, obviously. Yes.
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Obvious to who? Exactly. And I feel like people say, well, obviously, he didn't care.
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And then sometimes I think, okay.
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That isn't the point of what we're talking about right now, but it's hard to not want to say,
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ooh, hold up a minute. Is it that obvious? And why do you believe it's obvious that he doesn't
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care? Well, it's because he looked back at his phone. Okay. So that is an observation and a
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judgment. So it sounds like there's no curiosity, but then I feel like somebody in those scenario,
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well, this is actually literally what happened a few days ago. And then the person has said.
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You know what? It's okay, fine. I don't know. It doesn't matter. But anyway, and sometimes I feel,
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be like, oh, but we need to address some of those things because they just happen so frequently.
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Right, and that goes back to that idea of schema, like what we believe about a person.
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Like, so we have this lens, everything they do passes through this.
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And so if I believe that I have a disconnect from this person and they don't like me,
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then everything that they do, even if I'm not consciously aware that I'm sending it through that lens,
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it subconsciously happens.
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And so the conclusions that come out are gonna reflect that, so interesting.
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It is, okay, all right.
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I was gonna try to tie it in to what we're talking about today.
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And then boy, can that make people feel depressed, but that's kind of, that was a clunky,
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that didn't work very well together.
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It was a valiant effort. Thank you. So what are we talking about?
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Okay, so I brought this up in Supervision this week. Gallup released just this week, so May 17th,
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Gallup released an article that reflected
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a poll that they did with, I think it was over 5,000 adults in the U.S.,
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and our depression rates are getting significantly worse based on their polling data.
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Just to be funny and hilarious, when you said this to me, you said, oh, did you read that article about depression?
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And I didn't at all. but I found myself for a millisecond.
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Still wanting to say, oh, yeah, I'm familiar with that. So, that my still emotional immaturity,
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because then it's, well, I'll go find it. But, and then I took great pride in saying, no,
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no, Nate, I haven't. And then you said, really? A man in your position and you haven't read that?
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And that's what I said? Yeah, you gaslighted me. Remember this? Now I'm gaslighting you about gaslighting me.
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Yeah, that's impressive. No, thank you. No, you didn't. But it has some pretty big numbers.
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It does.
13:55
Okay, talk about that. Yeah, it does. Well, so, what they were looking at is they were comparing two different time
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periods. So, the information that we had from 2015, I think that they ultimately were comparing
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numbers from 2017 up to today, 2023. The poll was all obtained in February of 2023.
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You know, I'll be honest, you can kind of see in the polling data, because they've charted it out,
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you can see these bumps around COVID. I would say I see one that seems to be around,
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So yeah, 2020 and 2021 in particular.
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Yeah, but it's still, the trend line is, even after that, still going the wrong direction.
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It might drop a little, but it's still going the wrong direction.
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We're still seeing increases, which is so interesting because never,
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in all of human history, I feel very comfortable saying this,
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in all of recorded human history,
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never has any society that I'm aware of put more resources into mental health,
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and it is going the wrong direction.
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Something is not going right.
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Yeah. Oh, and I remember when we were talking about this, I have non-scientific theories of why,
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but we'll get to those later. All right, I like it. Okay. I like it. So.
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I dug in a little bit to what they were talking about with depression.
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They didn't really make any distinctions. I thought it might be helpful for people that
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are listening just to kind of have a couple general ideas of what we're usually talking
15:20
about clinically when we're talking about depression. Usually the big two are going
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to be major depressive disorder. The next one that you probably see most commonly would be,
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it used to be called dysthymia, now it's persistent depressive disorder.
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So those are the things that we typically see. Major depressive disorder is something that
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that happens for at least two weeks, it's often associated with things like loss of
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interest or pleasure and things that we used to enjoy, feelings of worthlessness or guilt,
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struggle to focus, irritability, withdrawal from people, increase or decrease in sleep,
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increase or decrease in weight, exhaustion.
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So those are all pretty common symptoms we see with people with major depressive disorder.
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Dysthymia is not as severe, but it's depression nonetheless,
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but it's over a long period of time. So we're talking about, again, this is,
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I don't know if I said this the first time, but this is all coming out of the DSM.
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So this is how we are currently in the mental health field categorizing depression.
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And so you can experience depression outside of this, but from a clinical standpoint,
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this is how the field generates, like you and I are not gonna be like,
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well, you don't have depression because the DSM doesn't say.
16:27
Yeah, exactly. Like if you're sad, let's talk about it. we're maybe a little more humanistic in our approach. Anyway, so back to to Dysthymia or
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persistent depressive disorder.
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Similar types of symptoms less severe. Some people call it high-functioning depression. Okay, so just kind of always there and they feel it,
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But they can still function in a somewhat normal way internally They might be feeling terrible, but they're able to kind of muscle through but they have a difficult time
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With things a lot of other people do routinely.
16:58
Without challenge a couple other depressive related things that you might like some people might think of
17:04
when they consider depression, premenstrual dysphoric disorder, PDD, which is- PMDD, right?
17:11
Well- Or no, PDD. It's PDD now. They keep changing the names.
17:14
Oh, I didn't know that would have been changed. Yeah.
17:16
Okay. Yeah. I actually looked it up because I wasn't sure about it.
17:19
Okay. But yeah, but- You know, I've never done an episode or anything about that.
17:23
And I'm curious, yeah. So what, I would say, what do you know about that?
17:25
I don't know much about it. It's basically, it's related to a woman's menstrual cycle.
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Yeah. ultimately, when someone's experiencing PDD, it's going to be connected with that.
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So they might feel fine, and then they fall into this really bad depression
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right around their cycle. And I'm talking about something I have no experience in,
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and so I hope we might.
17:43
Have you had any clients that have had that? Yeah. Okay, I've had quite a few.
17:47
Yeah, and it's again one of those things where I appreciate that it's being talked about more,
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because, and I feel like it's one of those where when somebody says to me,
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oh, my ADHD, and I think, you don't have ADHD.
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Or somebody, when they say, yeah, and because of my OCD, sometimes I tie my shoes a certain way
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and somebody that has OCD says, okay, that's, you don't have it.
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And I feel like the PMDD or PDD, PDD, when somebody really has this,
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it's not just a, yeah, they get sad around the time of their period,
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but they don't wanna get out of bed.
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And you can almost, I don't wanna sound dramatic and say you can set your clock by it.
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But talking about it more has really helped Because I have had some clients where you can, if you're anticipating and you know this
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is what's going to happen, it's almost like you can prepare for it in a sense, which has been nice.
18:34
Yeah. Yeah. You know, I do have to make a correction on this.
18:38
Okay. PDD was labeled PDD by an article that I pulled up, not the DSM.
18:43
So if you said PMDD, I would assume that clinicians are knowing what you're talking about, and
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I don't know if this article is actually reflecting what the DSM reflects or just somebody decided.
18:57
To put that there.
18:59
To clarify. Yeah. It's depression related to PMS.
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For people that are under 18, there's disruptive mood dysregulation disorder.
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I don't know if you've ever had anybody that you've run into that has experienced that.
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You only have it up until the age of 18, so it's minors and below.
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It's more irritability than depression, and it's typically diagnosed, well, you can diagnose
19:24
it after six, but the onset has to begin before ten.
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It is under the umbrella of depressive disorders.
19:32
Looks more like irritable kids. Okay, it's so funny. I'm I go to jokes far too much
19:36
Yeah, but I like jokes any well anything though that has those it has to be before 10 you cruise in there
19:42
He's gets past his 10th birthday, right and then the symptoms hit and he's like, oh at least it's not that right, right?
19:48
Good thing good thing because none of that happened before 10. Yeah, right Some people think also about a manic depression or bipolar depression. That's its own separate category. So,
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So I believe when they're talking about depression, they're talking primarily about major depressive
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disorder, dysthymia, possibly premenstrual dysphoric disorder.
20:07
That's what I would assume. I couldn't find in there what they were specifically talking about.
20:11
I did Google the thing about, and it does look like it's PDD.
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So I don't know how long, oh, right there though, PMDD. And then here, oh, okay.
20:18
Yeah, I don't know. Oh, it's one or the other.
20:21
Right? Wait, wait, PMDD with the PDD. Yeah, I have no idea. We're just really making this clear as mud.
20:28
I may edit that out, exactly, says two guys that don't have it, don't experience that. Yeah, yeah.
20:34
So depression is a big problem. To get down into some of the numbers that we're seeing in this poll,
20:42
or I guess it was probably a survey, it was more accurate.
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So in 2017, for all US adults, 13 and a half percent currently have or were being treated for depression.
20:56
Wow.
20:57
Okay, the number on what, in 2017 that we were looking at, anyone that would get it over their lifetime was 20.6%.
21:06
Okay, and does it say how long one must have it or is it still going by,
21:10
is this why we're laying out the clinical definition? Yeah, it doesn't specify, so that's why I'm saying
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these are clinically what we typically look at is depression and I'm guessing
21:19
it's falling under that umbrella.
21:20
Okay, so that's 2017, so then they go do this poll in February and the numbers have risen dramatically.
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The percentage of adults in 2023 that are being treated or currently have depression
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are 17.8%. We've risen over 4% since 2017.
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All people, all US adults that will at some point get some kind of a diagnosis or treatment
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for depression have risen to 29%.
21:54
Okay, almost a third of the population. Yeah, yeah.
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And the people that are affected the most are women, young adults, and minorities. Okay.
22:06
So it looks like it affects blanket everybody, although there was one chart that was really,
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I don't even know if this matters that much, but I was interested to see that.
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65 and older, 2017 12.1%, 2023 11.9%.
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So apparently the 65 year olds and older have figured something out.
22:27
Wow. They were the only group of the whole thing that went down. Wow, okay.
22:32
Is it acceptance? Radical acceptance? Or is it the ab in a pickleball?
22:36
I don't know. I've got this chart that I use sometimes when I speak that shows when people
22:40
are really good at doing things. Like when science says you're the best at doing something.
22:44
And I just laugh every time I see this. People like their body the best at 74. Really?
22:50
And I'm like, okay, yeah, because there's so many 74-year-old swimsuit models and Mr. Olympia's,
22:55
right? So no comparisons are happening?
22:57
No. Clearly, it's a mental thing. Like we've gotten to a place where like,
23:01
like, well, this is what I got. And I'm okay with it. It takes till you're 74.
23:05
Yeah, isn't that wild?
23:07
I got a few years to go then.
23:08
Oh, really? Yeah. I don't think I'll ever be happy with my body, so.
23:11
Tell me more about that, Nate. That's my pessimism. Okay, yeah.
23:14
So, okay, so anyway, so those are kind of the numbers. Those are what we're looking at.
23:19
So, as far as the causes, man, the causation on depression, it's tough to really figure out.
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You're talking about traumas, you're talking about childhood experiences,
23:28
you're talking about general life experiences, You're talking about the way a person thinks.
23:31
You're talking about other potential mental health problems that might contribute to that.
23:35
You're talking about physical health problems that might contribute to that.
23:38
You're talking about like family history. So there's a genetic component.
23:41
There's medications that can cause us to feel depressed.
23:45
There's recreational drugs and alcohol that can cause us to feel depressed.
23:49
You've got sleep. You've got diet. You've got exercise. You don't get the right amount of that stuff.
23:53
We can feel depressed. I mean, and that's not even all of it.
23:57
Yeah. And that's a pretty extensive list. So, I don't know, are there other things that you've seen that are like, oh man, it's just that?
24:03
Well, I mean, I don't know when to jump in because I've got such, I've got such strong opinions on this.
24:09
Oh, I'm sorry. Oh, no. Let's get opinions.
24:11
Okay, okay. Do you want me to throw this out there and then we'll go?
24:13
I do. Okay. All right. So, I'm going to pull up something really quick. So, in the world of
24:18
acceptance and commitment therapy, which I think you are now sold on.
24:20
I really like it. Okay. And I feel like ACT, acceptance and commitment therapy, is manna from heaven.
24:27
It is the truth. It is the way. It is the light. I'm just so in on it. And there's a concept that
24:32
Russ Harris put out in the book from The Happiness Trap. And he talked about, or maybe this was in
24:38
The Confidence Gap. He wrote both of them. But he says, okay, this is where I go with the brain as
24:43
a don't get killed device. So, he, and I love this. He says, and I'm going to just read this,
24:48
quick sidetrack, happiness. Why is it so difficult? So, he said, the modern human
24:53
mind's ability to analyze, plan, create, and communicate was not initially a
24:57
feel-good device so that we could tell jokes, write poems, or say I love you. And
25:00
then when I speak on this, I always say think about a court jester. That you
25:03
literally had to have somebody that would come in and then tell jokes. And so
25:07
jokes were not being thrown out by the general population. And if he wasn't good
25:11
at his job, he was killed.
25:13
Which is, I can't even imagine. I would have been murdered long ago.
25:17
Pete As a court jester or as a therapist? Dr. Tim Jackson Yeah, both.
25:20
Yeah. But if they weren't funny, they would be killed. But our minds grew up in a way to help
25:24
us survive in a world fraught with danger. And early on, Russ Harris says your goal was to eat,
25:29
drink, find shelter, have more kids and protect your family so you could survive. So, that's where
25:33
he said your brain is this don't get killed device. But the better we became at anticipating
25:36
and avoiding danger, then the longer we lived and the more kids we had. So, every generation of the
25:40
human mind became increasingly skilled at predicting and avoiding danger. So now our
25:44
minds are constantly on the lookout, assessing and judging everything we encounter. So good or bad,
25:49
safe or dangerous, harmful or helpful. But now it's not as much animals or packs of thieves,
25:55
but it's about losing a job or being rejected or getting a speeding ticket or embarrassing
25:58
ourselves in public, getting a terminal disease and a million other common worries. So as a result,
26:03
we spend a lot of time worrying about things that more often than not won't ever happen.
26:07
And then he says, we have an inherent need to belong to a group. And early on, if your clan
26:10
booted you out, how long would it be before you were devoured by wolves? And so, how does your
26:14
mind protect you from getting booted out? Now, compare yourself with other members of the clan.
26:19
Am I fitting in? Am I doing the right thing? Am I contributing enough? Am I as good as the others?
26:23
Am I doing anything that might get me rejected? And then this is where I think it's so good. He
26:27
says, does that sound familiar? So, our modern day minds are continually warning us of rejection
26:32
and comparing ourselves to the rest of society. So, no wonder we spend so much energy worrying
26:35
whether or not people will like us. And even as little as a couple of decades ago, we only had
26:39
to worry about the people that were at our church or in our neighborhood or our school or our work.
26:43
But now all we have to do is pick up our phone or glance at a computer screen and we find a whole
26:47
host of people who now appear smarter, richer, slimmer, more famous, more powerful than we are.
26:52
And then when we compare ourselves to others, we feel inferior or disappointed or sad or depressed.
26:58
And then, and this is the kicker, he says to make it even worse, our minds are so sophisticated
27:03
that we can also conjure up a fantasy image of the person that we believe that we'd like to be.
27:07
So, now we can even compare ourselves to a version of ourselves that we assume
27:10
would be much happier. So, that I know that's a mouthful there, but so, I just feel like here I
27:16
can be the old man and before I yell for all the kids to get off my lawn, I can say that that darn
27:21
social media, which is such an amazing, wonderful tool, but I feel like that comparison and so,
27:27
then if we are so worried about getting booted out of the clan and we have it to compare,
27:31
then and people are putting out their best selves on social media and wherever else,
27:37
that then it's no wonder that we constantly are feeling less than. So, there's my blanket view.
27:42
Yeah. What do you think?
27:43
So, I really, really like that. The way I conceptualize it, I think is similar. I can
27:49
only speak to my experiences with depression. And so, I understand everyone's is very unique to
27:54
them. But if I had to like look back and kind of...
27:59
Say what I think was going on, what I believe was going on. That prediction engine was so out of whack.
28:06
I'm trying to think of a good comparison here. The only thing I can think of is the old Terminator movies
28:12
where the Terminator's walking around
28:14
and it shows his view and everything's computing and he's evaluating all this stuff
28:19
and it's making decisions, telling him things.
28:22
I believe our brain's doing something similar but on a subconscious level.
28:25
And it's kind of telling us that information not through a visual but kind of through feelings.
28:29
And so, what I believe was happening when I was depressed was I do have anxiety, and
28:35
I was being treated for that.
28:37
My anxiety got so elevated and I was constantly running from it, which speaks to what you
28:41
were saying. I was trying to avoid my anxiety. Everything I was doing was trying to avoid my anxiety, so I was doing virtually nothing.
28:47
And eventually that, I believe we have an internal ledger, positive and negative experiences.
28:57
And I believe that these experiences dictate how our prediction engine works.
29:03
And the less, like the fewer experiences you have, and the worse you start to feel about
29:07
yourself, the more of these experiences you do have end up on the negative side.
29:12
Because even if it was a positive experience, you're applying implicit memory.
29:15
Yeah. What it feels like to be you. Exactly.
29:18
And yeah, you turned me on to the Buddha brain and I'm so grateful because he says it's based
29:22
on the residue of lived experience.
29:24
Right. Yeah. up with a prediction engine that's got everything that you're experiencing is negative.
29:33
Why even get up in the morning? Why take a shower?
29:36
I'm probably just going to burn myself or slip and fall.
29:38
Why cook food? It's going to taste terrible anyway. You're just in such a negative state that your prediction engine – again, my experience.
29:45
My prediction engine was just telling me, don't even bother because it's not going to work.
29:51
If you try to make your bed, it's going to look terrible anyway or some kid is going
29:55
to jump on it and you're going to freak out because you just put all that work into it
29:58
because you're low, you're low in energy and it's so hard to do anything and you're so reactive.
30:04
Again, my experience, I understand other people who have different experiences.
30:07
So that's what I really feel like, like really, really was a problem for me with my depression
30:13
was all of these things happening at a subconscious level.
30:16
I wasn't aware they were happening.
30:17
You read a bunch of books, start to learn what the brain's doing, like, oh, okay, well,
30:21
I guess it was doing that.
30:22
And when it takes, and I feel like one of the things that we don't talk about as well
30:25
is it takes so long to change. That didn't sound very helpful.
30:29
I feel it takes longer than one anticipates for that implicit memory or what it feels
30:35
like to be you to shift.
30:36
Yeah, it doesn't turn on a dime. Think of that ledger. Everything's negative.
30:40
You have no positives.
30:41
You have to even that ledger out and then get it to where it's mostly positives on that
30:47
ledger. That takes a long time for some people. It does. And I feel like that's one of those things that's a hard sales pitch, which actually
30:51
will lead.
30:53
Honestly, I think this leads into a little bit of where I feel like I have an unscientific
30:57
view of what I think is the problem.
30:59
Okay. I like it. Okay. And I do, I need to not pretend that I'm, I got like, I'm about to say something
31:04
so controversial and hot topic, because this is just, this is my opinion.
31:08
Okay. So not a hot take.
31:10
But I think it would technically be a hot take. Hey, I said something the other day
31:13
and one of my clients is like, that's a hot take. And I said, okay, I don't know if that's
31:16
a good thing or a bad thing. But so I do feel, matter of fact, this is fun to talk about with
31:21
with you, because once I went all in on the acceptance and commitment therapy, I did a very emotionally
31:28
immature thing, and then I went that now cognitive behavioral therapy is all bad.
31:31
You know, I just write, it's bad. I have a funny story that I don't know if I've ever told.
31:36
I also, shockingly, have ADHD. I've talked about that a few times on the podcast.
31:40
And I get asked to do a lot of different podcasts, and there's been a time or two where I haven't
31:44
really done my research.
31:45
And then I jump on a podcast, and I don't wanna make it sound like I'm making fun of certain things.
31:50
There's been a couple of them where I've gotten on and I've been asked, hey, now tell me about your experience
31:55
where you were picked up and dropped in a different land by angels.
31:59
And I'm like, ooh, I should have done a little background on this podcast,
32:01
because I maybe didn't have that experience.
32:03
But I also was asked at one point to do a talk about ACT to a big group of therapists,
32:09
but I didn't know when I went and researched the group of therapists that it was a cognitive behavioral therapy center.
32:15
And so, right, and I got on there. I'm like, man, let me tell you about why I love ACT
32:19
why cognitive behavioral therapy is so dumb, you know, and I didn't and I found
32:24
out later that was they were all so amazing though and then because I opened
32:28
the floor of the questions and there were a few but in a nutshell and I want
32:32
you to correct me on this I feel like most every therapist learns cognitive
32:35
behavioral therapy in grad school I don't know if schools are teaching ACT
32:39
Thank you very much.
32:40
No, I think I had one week on it in one class. Okay, right. And so then cognitive behavioral therapy in the tiniest little in a nutshell
32:49
is your thoughts lead to your emotions and your emotions lead to your behaviors.
32:53
And you start out with some really cool acronyms like ANTS, your automatic negative thoughts,
32:57
or your stinking thinking. And so you have a client that comes in and let's say they say,
33:02
okay, this person hasn't called me back, so they must hate me. And then cognitive behavioral
33:06
therapy may say, or what are some other reasons? Well, yeah, maybe their phone's out of batteries,
33:11
maybe it dropped in the pool, that sort of thing. And in the moment, in the session,
33:15
you can, okay, because then if they have a different thought, it could lead to a different
33:19
emotion, maybe, okay, I feel a little bit more hope in the behavior of I'm going to go do fun
33:23
things throughout the day. And that sounds great. But then a person would leave and they'd say,
33:27
yeah, that's awesome. And then they would come back the next week and they're like, okay, yeah,
33:30
I tried doing that, but then I, but no, I think that they just don't like me. And so then I feel,
33:35
and this is again my opinion that then the message is hey so your thoughts are
33:39
wrong so I go with the you're broken and now just change them and this is the one
33:44
where it's I'm gonna wake up in the morning and I'm gonna be happy all day.
33:47
And then I sleep through my alarm or I get in traffic jam or the dog throws up
33:53
on the carpet and now I'm mad and now I beat myself up because I was gonna be
33:57
happy so I get to go back to what's wrong with me so then I find myself thinking that so we start off with the you're broken then we just say just
34:04
change your thought and be happy. And then when that doesn't work consistently
34:08
because you're actually a human being that has a whole bunch of thoughts and
34:11
emotions, then you go down to what's wrong with me. And then I feel like then
34:14
as somebody that used to work with, do a lot of CBT, then when I would say,
34:18
how's it working? And they'd be like, um, and I feel like this is again, the part
34:22
I'm making up. I feel like here's somebody in front of you that they do.
34:26
Want to be validated and they are coming in for help. And you seem pretty excited
34:29
about it because you're the clinician and you want them to go, man, this guy's
34:32
a good therapist. So, I feel like they would often say, um, no, yeah, it's, it's, uh, yeah,
34:37
no, it's kind of working. It's doing pretty good. And then I feel like then now that person is going
34:41
to think, I just have to do better at this, but I can't tell this guy because he seems pretty excited
34:47
and that would even mean I'm more broken. And, and I almost feel like this is the, the reason why
34:52
I think sometimes we buy a course or we buy a book and we read it and we're like, oh, this is
34:56
going to work. And then it's like, uh, when, when then all of a sudden we read some things and we,
35:00
we gain some knowledge and then and then we kind of go back to some of the things that we normally do
35:05
then we think oh man what is wrong with me the book said that it would change my life or change
35:09
my mindset and that sort of thing so no i'll do i'll find another book because that'll make me
35:13
me happy. And so I feel like that.
35:17
The more that we are, you're right, we're investing so much in mental health, but I worry that the.
35:21
More that we're kind of putting out some of the tools, that it's actually, combine it with that,
35:25
the brains that don't get killed device and why is happiness so difficult. And then the message,
35:29
I think, that is being out, going out there from social media influencers, a lot of coaches,
35:34
motivational speakers, is based off of the cognitive behavioral therapy model. So, it's,
35:38
people that are going out there, hey, look, you just got to get up in the morning and you can do
35:41
it. And you put some cool music behind that and some pictures of people climbing a mountain.
35:46
And all of a sudden it's like, I can do this. Like I can climb that mountain.
35:49
And then the next morning you don't wake up for your alarm. And then you're like, man, I suck.
35:53
You know, and then people beat themselves up. So I worry that, especially with the rise then again
35:58
of social media, and I'm not trying to sound like that old man, that all motivational speakers
36:03
and all influencers are bad.
36:04
But I feel like that most of those models are based off of cognitive behavioral therapy.
36:09
So just change your mindset.
36:11
Just think about it differently. And it does, it feels good,
36:13
because like I can do that in this moment it's gonna make me feel better because then I can get rid of that discomfort of
36:18
what's wrong with me and I'm like yeah I can do that but then when I have a
36:22
cacophony it's a good word of thoughts emotions and feelings then I start thinking man see I can't even do what that motivational speaker saying or that
36:30
influencers saying.
36:32
I'm going to take a breath, but you can poke holes in that, Nate.
36:35
No, I think that makes a lot of sense. I don't think I'm quite as down. Not down. I don't want
36:40
to say you're down on CBT. Oh, yeah, because you taught me, by the way, there's my ADD. That's the
36:45
point I want to make too. Remember what you said? You said, look old man. Well, I just, I believe
36:52
that CBT is a step towards ACT. Yeah, I love this. Talk about that. Well, so ACT, I mean,
36:58
I mean, if you want to get specific, ACT has a very specific skill called diffusion,
37:04
which is where you're disconnecting from your thoughts and emotions and you're in a non-judgmental way.
37:08
Just noticing them. Right. There they are.
37:11
Right, and to me, that part of ACT makes a lot of sense to me,
37:14
but I think in order for me to get there, I needed to start to challenge my thoughts
37:17
because it was too big of a leap for me to get from, I don't, like, I just believe everything my thoughts tell me
37:23
and my emotions feel like, to, well, don't worry about what your thoughts are telling you
37:28
and just let go of what you're most- It's just a thought, just notice it.
37:31
Right. But you're- I needed that step. You did.
37:34
For me, just for me. And I think this is, I think not just for you, you're being very kind.
37:39
But I think that that was so well said because you helped me,
37:42
you've been on those calls for my Path Back, the online pornography recovery group.
37:47
And it is really CBT-based because I created it a long time ago.
37:52
And then I've added some ACT principles in, especially in the group calls.
37:56
But one of the things that people get on there and they'll often say, oh, the module I love the best
38:00
is wrong thought, right, where then they have the thought where they wanna look at pornography in a certain moment
38:05
and they go, wrong thought, right thought, I wanna go hug my kid.
38:09
And then, and I'm sitting there now, like, so not jaded, but where the, with acceptance and commitment therapy,
38:15
it's like, okay, I'm wanting to look at pornography.
38:17
That's a thought.
38:18
Like, check that out. I also am thinking about wanting to do this,
38:21
or I'm thinking about this, and so I'm noticing the thought,
38:24
I'm diffusing from the thought, I'm inviting a thought to come with me
38:26
while I take action on value-based things,
38:28
but then you're right.
38:29
When somebody coming right into the group and they watch that module,
38:32
they're not ready to, oh, that's interesting. Notice that thought.
38:36
They need to snap their wrist with a rubber band and go, no, I need to do this.
38:40
So that makes so much sense.
38:42
I do think that there's a certain amount of people that cognitive behavioral therapy works pretty well for.
38:48
Obviously, because it's been around forever and there's a million books on it.
38:50
Right, yeah. So, I just happen, again, we're all our own tapestry,
38:55
individual, there's no two of us exactly alike. Although, if you look at us right now,
39:00
glasses, beard, and bald.
39:01
It's true, we're starting to look alike. Right, I spit all over you.
39:04
I'm hoping I get thinner like you.
39:05
Well, I'm hoping to get taller and that'll never happen. You can achieve your goal,
39:09
I will not be able to achieve mine.
39:10
That's true. And then the other part that I do talk about with,
39:13
so I lay out all that stuff and I'm grateful to be able to say that And I like the fact that, yeah,
39:18
cognitive behavioral therapy still has a very, very important use.
39:21
But then this is another one that I know is my opinion, that I think we also handle the way we handle thoughts.
39:29
I feel like we do it, trying to like say it all smart and nice.
39:34
But we do it primarily in a non-helpful way. That's me trying to not say wrong.
39:39
So then I feel like when somebody has a thought, they often say, number one, if it's the thought of,
39:43
okay, let's say that, yeah, I wanna go act out on some unhealthy behavior.
39:47
The first thing they do often is say, man, what's wrong with me?
39:50
So I think that that's part of that broken part.
39:52
And I wanna say, okay, nothing, it is a thought, you're a human being and you have lots of them.
39:57
So once I can say, okay, not that what's wrong with me, the next one is, okay, I know I shouldn't think this.
40:02
And again, that's a layup for us to deal with. Don't think about a white polar bear wearing a blue hat,
40:07
hitting people with a purple pool noodle, riding a unicycle, like we all just did.
40:11
So that one doesn't work. So I don't do the what's wrong with me.
40:13
And then I can't do the don't think it.
40:16
And this is the part where in the world of act, there's a challenge instead of thinking I wanna act out,
40:22
think I wanna go hug my kid.
40:24
And so then there's what I have to think about that I wanna act out to get to the part
40:28
where I wanna hug my kid.
40:29
So now you're starting to almost form this relational frame with that.
40:32
And there was a, when I used to work for a church, there was a document that had kicked around for a while
40:37
that talked about when people would wanted to go look at porn and they would sing hymns,
40:41
and they would sing these top 10 hymns.
40:43
But then there was a document kicking around for a while that said, okay, we're noticing now
40:48
that sometimes when the top 10 hymn fires up, that then people are triggered
40:52
and they start thinking about porn.
40:53
Yeah, associations go both ways. Yeah, and so that's part of where,
40:56
if I want to look at.
40:57
Pornography and now I'm going to think about hugging my kids, I don't want it to be every
41:00
time I go to hug my kid, I think about pornography. And that's a bad example. I really don't even
41:05
mean to, right? Don't even joke about that. I feel so bad. But I didn't see that. I didn't
41:08
see that one coming. But I think you know where I'm going with that. And so that's the part where
41:13
I do feel like between the brain is a don't get killed device, the we don't want to get kicked
41:17
out of the clan, the cognitive behavioral therapy works until it maybe doesn't and that it's the,
41:23
you're broken, just change your thought." And then I feel like, okay, and what do we do with
41:26
thoughts? We say, well, I shouldn't be thinking it and then don't think it. And then instead of
41:31
think this, think that. So, now I feel like I got a whole bucket of things that the more we're
41:34
putting content out there, if it's that content, I worry that it will start to lead to people that
41:41
are saying, okay, I'm now even getting more content about depression and I feel worse because
41:46
I worry that maybe that content doesn't resonate with everybody. I know, right?
41:50
Yeah, and but I mean that's depression. It's really complicated and it's very personal and it takes a while to work through and
41:58
our model around it from psychiatric.
42:03
Standpoint has been I don't want to say it's somewhat ineffective. I don't know has been middling in it
42:09
So so they typically look at neurotransmitters like serotonin and norepinephrine and dopamine and that's what medication is is around
42:17
Maybe I know we only got a few minutes left, but talk about that component because I I still feel like medication
42:23
can play such a helpful role and a lot of people don't want to take medication and
42:27
I go into my emotional baseline theory and when you're feeling down your baseline so low
42:32
You can't even access the tools mental health tools to feel better
42:36
Yeah and sometimes I feel like even taking medication will bump your baseline up enough to be able to reach the tools whether it's
42:42
mindfulness or figuring out your values or taking action on things that matter.
42:46
And sometimes people feel so down they can't even come close to grabbing the
42:49
tools they need. Yeah and that is true. It's hard to want to ask for help when
42:54
you're feeling ashamed of the fact that you're feeling as badly as you feel. That.
42:58
Certainly can be a challenge. I had mixed results with the medication. I was on and
43:02
off different SSRIs, SNRIs over almost two decades. I thankfully don't need
43:08
them now. I don't know what would happen if something really catastrophic happened in
43:13
my life. Would I possibly fall into depression? Possibly. I'm prone to do that at times. But,
43:18
things are going well now, so I'm hopeful that I have enough skills that I would be
43:22
able to get through it.
43:23
The medication seems to be hit or miss. I have some clients that are like, this is great
43:27
and really helpful. I have other clients that are like, it doesn't matter what I take. It
43:29
just doesn't seem like it's helping. It seems like science is looking at other things now.
43:34
So there's a whole bunch of neurotransmitters, and the ones I mentioned are a couple of the
43:39
biggies. neurotransmitters that are important for us in a myriad of ways is GABA and glutamate.
43:46
And that brings us to psychedelics, which I know almost nothing about.
43:51
First of all, I missed an opportunity for a joke. Gabin, Glutamate sounds like a great kids TV show.
43:56
Definitely. Right? Yeah. You better go get a patent on that. Yeah.
44:01
So, well, and it's interesting. So, psychedelics, and I know we didn't give ourselves enough time,
44:05
but I have been very interested and I've had clients that have been experienced, you know,
44:10
becoming more familiar with the world of psychedelic assisted therapy.
44:14
And the FDA has approved ketamine at this point, and I've worked with clients that have tried
44:19
ketamine-assisted therapy, and I have even done, and I've never talked about that, but I even did
44:24
a little bit of it because I'm sold on the benefits of psychedelic-assisted therapy.
44:29
And I think that the more that maybe that is something you're interested in learning more
44:33
about, but it really hits that default mode network of the brain. And I feel like there's
44:38
some really cool, if you want, I feel like visual aids that you can see some really cool pictures
44:43
that show that even after one treatment of a psychedelic, whether it's psilocybin from
44:47
mushrooms or ketamine, or that the little synapses almost seem like they're reaching
44:52
out to make these new neural connections.
44:55
And I feel like where the psychedelic-assisted therapy comes in is that if somebody just
45:00
has a trip at a party, then yeah, that stuff is happening and their world is rocked.
45:06
But it's not like they're now going in with some intention, an expectation, and then trying
45:11
to make these new neural connections.
45:13
And so, there's a belief that the psychedelic-assisted therapy is almost like six months of mindfulness
45:18
in a dose or two because it can really open your mind.
45:22
There's an amazing book called How to Change Your Mind by Michael Pollan, and he also wrote
45:27
one called The Omnivore's Dilemma, and I probably maybe butchered both of those titles.
45:31
But if people are curious about psychedelic-assisted therapy, that's a really good read.
45:35
And I know Netflix has a special by him on it as well.
45:39
And I'll have to talk about this on another episode, but it really was, because I've never
45:44
really done anything, drinking, drugs, that sort of thing. And so to have had that experience, it really was mind-blowing.
45:52
And after I got past the part where I thought that I had died, my hands had melted into
45:55
my stomach and my curtains were made from an anime TV show, then it really was almost
46:00
that let go and then just be so hyper-focused and present.
46:04
And then that really did carry through for quite a while and just allowed you to just be so in the moment.
46:10
And so I know the ketamine in particular has some really impressive success rates with
46:15
treatment-resistant anxiety and depression. It's being treated off-label for things like PTSD and I think even Parkinson's and things
46:21
like that.
46:22
And then the psilocybin, the psychedelics, that is I think in some final clinical trials from the FDA.
46:28
And that will be, I think, a pretty big thing as well. So that's something I think we definitely need to keep an eye on.
46:33
Yeah, absolutely. If someone came in my office and they were like,
46:36
I'm thinking about doing a psychedelic, I wouldn't know what to say.
46:40
I wouldn't be able to endorse nor try to dissuade them because I don't have enough information.
46:44
But if someone posed that question to you, how would you respond?
46:47
I mean, so it's a great question. And that's where I feel like, oh,
46:50
go find all the information you can to read about it because there is such a key part.
46:55
Which is called the expectation effect and then set and setting.
46:58
So, there's a lighthearted saying that whatever you want to do or find with the psychedelic,
47:04
you will. So, if you want to find God, you will. If you want to meet your long lost relatives,
47:11
you will. If you want to explore the mysteries of life, you will. But if you go in saying,
47:15
I hope I don't freak out, it could be a bad one. Yeah, because like, you know, it really just does,
47:22
you're just it's so much about the set and the setting and then when people do
47:27
that in a therapy assisted manner you really set the table with talking a lot
47:34
about what your expectation is and so then a lot of times you have with somebody there that guides you aka a trip sitter who's there helping you
47:42
process things and then I have had the opportunity with a few different clients
47:47
to then either do that or be the person that then processes after the the trip
47:51
And then it's, it is really, it's amazing.
47:54
I can't even describe all of the ways that people describe their experiences with it.
48:00
And then there's a lot of meaning to be made from those experiences.
48:04
And it's not like cut and dry. This is means this, but you can often with those little synapses, make a new neural connections.
48:11
You can make a lot of, a lot of different connections in your own life.
48:15
And I know, I think we've talked before about it's adorable that we're trying to make sense
48:18
of things in our brain.
48:19
That there's sometimes I think our brain just craves that certainty so much
48:23
that sometimes that does help make
48:24
as much sense as it can of certain things and allows people to just be a little bit more
48:29
in the moment or present because they realize that there's, I don't know, there's much more
48:35
than just our deeply rutted neural pathways.
48:37
Yeah, yeah. We both have clients, three, don't we? Yes.
48:41
Okay, and I feel bad, I wanted you to touch on the wellness model again, but maybe I'll put that
48:45
in the show notes to listen to the last time we spoke about that.
48:48
Sure. I would imagine that's a big part of it. That's where I start.
48:51
Yeah, and it's really posies. I still remember the acronym.
48:55
So do you have an episode on your podcast about, you do, on Wellness Model?
49:00
Yeah, so we have a three-part series on the Wellness Model, so we go into it pretty deep.
49:03
So maybe I'll put the links to that, to Working Change, and then people can go listen to you
49:07
and your wife, Marla, which would be great.
49:09
Nate Christensen.
49:10
Music.
51:17
Explode, allow the understanding through To heal the legs and heart.
51:22
Music.