Latest / I Used To Be Crap At Sales / TOP 15% of Salespeople Do THIS to Stay on Top |EP24| Niraj Kapur

Transcript

TOP 15% of Salespeople Do THIS to Stay on Top |EP24| Niraj Kapur · I Used To Be Crap At Sales

0:00
So who am I joined by today? Nobody supported and
0:03
nobody trained me, and nobody told me you have to read books
0:07
to become better.
0:07
Mark Ackers: My guest has had a long and successful career, and
0:10
since 2018 they have ran their own sales training business.
0:14
They are also a transformational speaker, an author multiple
0:17
times over with their books available on Amazon, Salesforce
0:21
awarded them the top sales influencer to follow, and
0:24
LinkedIn has awarded them the official top voice in sales
0:27
badge. My guest is Niraj Kapur, did you used to be crap at
0:32
sales?
0:33
Niraj Kapur: I used to be horrendous at sales. I was given
0:35
a script. I was given one hour to learn it. I had to sell this
0:37
magazine down the phone. Now bear in mind, this magazine was
0:40
about guns and weapons, and I had a strong Irish accent in the
0:43
early 90s in London, it did not go down well. Then you have
0:48
about 15% of people. They're the ones who hit target year after
0:52
year after year, and they're the ones who invest in themselves.
0:55
They're the ones who ask questions. They're the ones who
0:57
will hire coaches. They're the ones who go to Sales
0:59
conferences. You work very hard, you don't gossip, and you make
1:03
me money. You keep doing like you'll do well. Now a great boss
1:05
is somebody, when you do a good deal, gets out of their desk,
1:08
comes over to you and goes, well
1:10
Mark Ackers: done. What have you done to turn it around and make
1:12
2025? The best year. It's been okay. So
1:22
hello and welcome to another episode of The I used to be crap
1:25
at sales podcast. I'm your host, Mark Akers, co founder and Head
1:29
of Sales here at my sales coach, we called the podcast that
1:31
because it's true and all of our guests say the same. So who am I
1:35
joined by today? Some may say those who can't teach but that's
1:41
not true here. My guest is Niraj. Kapur, Niraj, welcome to
1:47
the podcast. I feel like it's been a long time coming. I know
1:50
we've known of each other for many years now, but delighted to
1:54
have you here. How are you today? I am doing absolutely
1:57
fine. Actually, I've gotten your office in the city now in
2:00
Belfast, and I had my first podcast yesterday, and because
2:03
you have these little pods, it's so echoey. So I was in the
2:07
office today, and I rushed back home so I can get a decent sound
2:10
to do this podcast. Thank you for making the effort whilst
2:12
you're looking to get a decent sound on your side. Irony is
2:15
someone that's like drilling in the floor below ours, so
2:18
hopefully that won't come across too loud, but great to have you
2:21
here. Let's Let's kick off with the question we always start
2:24
with neuralgia. Yes, no question, did you used to be
2:27
crap at sales? I used to be horrendous at sales. I did
2:30
because nobody supported and nobody trained me, and nobody
2:34
told me you have to read books to become better. And on a scale
2:38
of one to 10, one being the absolute worst. 10 being elite.
2:43
How would you rank yourself when you started off in sales? When I
2:46
started, I'd probably say two or three. I was given a script. I
2:50
was given one hour to learn it. I had to sell this magazine down
2:53
the phone. Bear in mind, this magazine was about guns and
2:56
weapons, and I had a strong Irish accent in the early 90s in
2:59
London,
3:01
Niraj Kapur: it did not go down well. It really didn't. And
3:03
anytime somebody give me an objection, I would just kind of
3:06
stumble and not know what to say. I'd have to wave to my
3:09
bossing. And back in those days, they had those double phones,
3:12
the boss could listen in and then say, say this, say this.
3:15
But it's not how you train people. And that was my first
3:18
experience in sales. It wasn't a very pleasant one.
3:21
Mark Ackers: I can imagine the reference may be lost with you
3:24
being from Northern Ireland, talking about guns in the 90s on
3:28
some of our listeners, but I can understand why that might have
3:31
been difficult for you. Let's talk about how you ended up in
3:34
sales then. So yeah, your first sales role was in 1994 according
3:39
to LinkedIn, the sales executive you were there for 10 years,
3:44
launching products, winning big deals, really starting at the
3:47
bottom and climbing your way to the very top, where you actually
3:51
got nominated for salesman of the year as well. Let's get into
3:54
that. But I suppose the first question is, how did you end up
3:56
in sales?
3:57
Niraj Kapur: I ended up in sales the way so many people do end up
4:00
in sales. Either not sure what you want to do in life, or you
4:02
just think, you know what I'd like to earn more money. And
4:04
back in those days, for everybody listening or watching,
4:07
you know, if you want to get a job in sales, you would go to
4:10
the back of the Evening Standard, I think, was a
4:12
Wednesday or Friday evening, and I would say, you know, our top
4:14
salesperson earned 2000 pound this week in commission. And I'm
4:18
like, Oh, I like the sound of that. And that was it. You know,
4:20
most people get into sales for the wrong reasons, and then they
4:23
thankfully leave very quickly, or they stay and become
4:26
mediocre, or they stay in after a while. Realise this is
4:29
actually a fantastic profession and a fantastic way to help and
4:32
serve people. But at the beginning, I did get in just I
4:35
had rent to pay, I had overheads. I'm obsessed with 80s
4:38
rock music and early 90s rock me tonight, I will buy every CD,
4:42
every special edition, every Japanese edition that exists,
4:47
you know, for all the rock bands that I love. So that was what my
4:50
expenses and overheads were. And the only thing that could fund
4:53
that living in a big city like London, and a very expensive
4:55
city like London was selling and
4:57
Mark Ackers: just picking up on what you said there about
4:59
people. Getting sales for the wrong reasons. Then you talk
5:01
about people that leave quite quickly, then people that stay,
5:04
that are mediocre, and then some people realise what fantastic
5:07
opportunity is. What kind of percentage would you put on
5:10
those different
5:11
Niraj Kapur: outcomes? I would say about 90% of people get into
5:14
sales for the money initially, or because they have no idea
5:17
what to do with their life, or, sadly, because they've watched
5:20
the bull for Wall Street too often.
5:22
You know, these things happen in terms of mediocre a lot of young
5:27
people will do sales jobs for a few years and go, this is
5:29
horrible, and just leave and get something else. There's a lot of
5:33
people I've trained, unfortunately, in the last year
5:36
to 18 months, who have been stuck in jobs for 20 years, and
5:39
they're in their 40s and they don't like LinkedIn, they don't
5:42
use social media, they don't like the state of the world, and
5:45
they say, This is who I am. I will never change. And there's a
5:48
lot of people like that now, probably as much as 20 to 25% I
5:52
would say, who are just mediocre, shouldn't really be
5:55
doing their job and shouldn't be in their job, but they're stuck
5:58
there because sometimes companies find it hard to get
6:01
rid of staff. Sometimes companies generally believe
6:04
staff will change with the best of intentions, even though they
6:06
never will. And these are what I would call the mediocre, let's
6:10
say 20, 25% mediocre. Then you have about the 50% who are kind
6:15
of hot and cold, average, hot and cold average, kind of zip
6:19
lining up and down, up and down, and then you have about 15% of
6:23
people in companies that I would call are great sales people.
6:26
They're not often natural. They're people who have maybe
6:28
spent years learning their craft to become very good, and they're
6:31
the ones who hit target year after year after year, and
6:35
they're the ones who invest in themselves. They're the ones who
6:37
ask questions, they're the ones who will hire coaches. They're
6:40
the ones who go to Sales conferences, and the top 15% is
6:44
what everybody should be aiming for. 50% hot and cold, 15%
6:48
great, 25% mediocre. You obviously got to the point where
6:53
you're in the top 15% I can see, I can see that in you, and you
6:56
did that the first 10 years, right? So in your intro, I was
6:58
saying how you really carried a bag and led and built teams for
7:02
like, just over 23 years. And this is why I'm excited for this
7:05
podcast. Like you've really lived this life, and now you're
7:09
training people how to have the success that you've had. And I
7:13
can see say you were there for 10 years, which, which actually
7:16
is a long time to stay in a sales company, in a sales reps,
7:19
a very long time. But if you're successful, and you're at a
7:22
place where you're earning money and they're investing in you,
7:24
and you feel like you're growing, perhaps not. But I see
7:27
that as I say, you went from entry level to being nominated
7:30
for salesman of the year, which would get you, I mean, really,
7:33
probably in the top 5% but what's the big differences? You
7:37
talk about investing themselves and coaching and going to
7:41
conferences, but it's obviously a lot more than that. What were
7:44
you doing differently to others when you were at the very top of
7:49
your game in those early years? In the early years, you know, I
7:52
became a father very young, and I got married very young, and I
7:55
had a mortgage that will make you work really hard. So that
7:59
was it. I would come into the office. I was the first person
8:01
there. You know, back in those days, you know, you started a
8:04
half nine, you finished at half five. You spent one hour the pub
8:06
for lunch. That was sales. Nobody worked in the evenings.
8:09
There was no mobile phones, there was no emails. You went
8:12
home at half five. And so what I did was I come into the office
8:15
most mornings about quarter past half eight, so one hour earlier,
8:18
and I would read all competitive press. Who's advertising? Hmm,
8:21
they're not advertising with us. Well, they should be. And I
8:24
would spend time doing that, and then shortly after, my
8:26
publisher, who was a boss, would come into the office, and she
8:29
would see me all the time, working, working, working. What
8:32
had happened was the publisher was amazed. She was a woman
8:35
working in publishing who was a boss in an office, and there
8:38
weren't many female bosses there, and a lot of people found
8:41
her very cold and very distant, but she was always very nice to
8:44
me, and I'll get teased in the office.
8:47
Oh, look, look who's arrived. It's Annie. Look. Now, Johnny,
8:50
your boss is here, because she's always really nice to me. And
8:53
one day I just knocked her door. Said, Annie, I'm really sorry to
8:55
bother you. Can we have a wee chat? And she goes, Sure. I
8:57
said, Look, I don't want to cause any trouble. Please don't
8:59
get upset with me. But why are you nice to me for because I was
9:02
just a kid in my 20s. I'd been in London for a few years. I
9:05
came from a small town in Northern Ireland. I wasn't the
9:07
life and soul of the party. I wasn't really that interesting a
9:10
person. I didn't understand why she was being nice to me. It
9:13
made no sense. And I said, Can I ask why? And she goes, Sure. She
9:18
goes, you work very hard. You don't gossip, and you make me
9:21
money. You keep doing that, you'll do well in life. And that
9:23
was it, just really simple advice, work really hard, don't
9:27
gossip and make money. And bosses love members of staff and
9:30
sales who make money. And so there's no doubt that you need a
9:33
bit of luck in anything you do as well. And having a great boss
9:37
does make a huge difference to your career. And there's no
9:40
saying. I'm sure it's all over the internet. You can find it.
9:42
He wouldn't work for a boss for a day. Don't work with him for a
9:45
year. Okay, just don't. And she just kept promoting me and
9:49
promoting me and saying, Okay, you're doing really well in the
9:51
magazine. How do you fancy selling our awards? I'm like,
9:54
Okay, you're doing really well in our awards. Why don't you
9:57
sell our conferences? Okay, it's more money. I'll do. It because
10:01
it was exciting. It was thrilling. The boss liked me,
10:03
and I kept getting paid more money, which meant I could get a
10:06
mortgage in my 20s in London. It was only a little two bedroom
10:10
house, but it gave me a life, and it gave me a career, and it
10:13
gave me a way of supporting my family.
10:14
Mark Ackers: So I get it when a boss is nice to you, that's
10:17
great. What else was she doing beyond being nice to you. That
10:20
made her a great boss. Like you talk about great bosses make all
10:24
the difference. What does make for a great boss?
10:26
Niraj Kapur: A great boss is somebody, when you do a good
10:28
deal, gets out of their desk, comes over to you and goes, well
10:32
done. That was brilliant. You can email somebody, which is
10:35
okay. But one thing I learned when I became a manager was, you
10:38
know, you go over to somebody, you shake their hand in front of
10:41
their colleagues, go, that was a brilliant deal. Well done. You
10:43
know, no matter what industry you work in, sales are non
10:46
sales, but especially sales people, whose egos are a bit
10:48
more fragile, let's be realistic, they want to be
10:50
appreciated. They want to be respected. They want to be
10:52
admired. Yes, sales people love the Commission. They love the
10:55
money. Of course, they love all those extras. But ultimately, as
10:58
human beings, we want to be respected. We want to be
11:01
appreciated by others. I don't mean loved by everybody, but
11:04
definitely want your boss to respect, admire you and
11:07
appreciate the good work you're doing.
11:08
Mark Ackers: And it's interesting, like you use the
11:10
language when you do a good deal. Do you feel like bosses
11:13
should only really do that level of praise when you go above and
11:16
beyond? Like you talk about working harder an hour earlier
11:19
every day doing good deals. Do you feel like bosses should only
11:23
give that level of praise when you go above and
11:25
Niraj Kapur: beyond? No, because as a coach, if I'm speaking to
11:28
somebody, and they've spent maybe two months trying to get a
11:31
meeting with somebody, and it hasn't worked on email, and I'm
11:33
saying, Okay, well, let's try multi platform approaches that's
11:36
much more successful. So we'll try email, we'll do a LinkedIn
11:39
DM, and then we'll try a phone call a week later. Let's do
11:42
that, and they have success just literally getting a meeting.
11:45
That's not a business deal, that's not revenue, but as far
11:48
as I'm concerned, that's worthy of saying well done to somebody.
11:51
So I don't think you should just congratulate sales people when
11:55
they make money for you. I think you congratulate them when they
11:59
support a colleague, when someone's on holiday and they
12:01
pick up the extra work, when they get a deal with somebody
12:04
who's just been quiet for months, or when they get a
12:07
meeting with a client who said, I will never do business with
12:10
this company again. I have to work with those clients because
12:12
had bad experiences with somebody else, which wasn't my
12:15
fault. It's really important to appreciate people for that.
12:17
Don't just appreciate them for making money, appreciate them
12:20
for good work that they do.
12:21
Mark Ackers: I suppose that that's kind of my point, right
12:24
again, it's some of the examples you gave there, like picking up
12:27
the slack when someone's on holiday. It's about not just
12:31
praising when they go above and beyond. It's about recognising
12:34
daily habits and behaviours and reinforcing that not not just
12:38
you've done something that I wouldn't expect you to do well
12:40
done. You've closed a deal better or bigger than I'd expect
12:43
you to do well done. It's about looking for micro opportunities
12:47
to say well done and reinforce positive behaviour. Is kind of
12:50
what I'm picking up from
12:51
Niraj Kapur: what you're saying absolutely. You know, even the
12:53
teams I coach now it's now what, August, 2025 and no doubt this
12:57
will still happen in q4 2025 it'll still happen in 2026 the
13:01
number of sales leaders I speak to, and sometimes commercial
13:04
directors. Not again, CEOs don't speak to CEOs as much, but sales
13:08
directors and commercial directors and HR directors, a
13:10
lot of the time. They complain the staff just don't care
13:13
sometimes. And then around a recent stat, Salesforce
13:15
initially said it was 72% of people will not hit their target
13:19
in 2024 and they estimated it would be 75% of people will not
13:25
hit their sales target in 2025 that number is actually now
13:28
closer to 80% which is shockingly high. So there's
13:31
clearly a disconnect going on here. Now there's a whole lot of
13:35
variable factors. Of course, there's things like, you know,
13:37
sales leaders making targets very high. Quality of leads, not
13:40
very good. The company's not investing enough. And you
13:42
there's all kinds of variables, of course you have to take into
13:45
consideration. But the fact that 80% of people are not hitting
13:48
their target is a major problem in sales. It really and truly
13:52
is, and I truly believe, just from the observations I see all
13:55
the time, learning to appreciate people on a deeper level,
13:59
learning to invest in people on a deeper level, and teaching
14:02
people to really look after their colleagues and to pick up
14:04
the slack. It's often the small things in business that make a
14:07
big difference. You and I both know everybody is desperate for
14:10
giant golden nuggets, rather desperate for oh, if you invest
14:13
50,000 this technology will be saved. Oh, invest 30,000
14:17
LinkedIn Sales Navigator, come on. If you do that, we'll hit
14:19
our targets. No, sometimes it's just the small things, which
14:23
often don't cost money, which really do have the biggest
14:25
impact in sales. And a lot of people just don't see this. I
14:28
see it all the time because I see I'm with teams, I'm in
14:31
offices all the time. But quite often it's the simple things
14:34
that make a big difference, not the big, expensive investments.
14:37
Mark Ackers: It's interesting because you talk about the
14:38
percentage of people not hitting target, and that aligns quite
14:42
nicely, not perfectly, but quite nicely, to your observation of
14:46
15% being the great salespeople that hit their target, 50% being
14:52
hot and cold and 25% being mediocre. And aligns quite
14:55
nicely to what Salesforce are predicting or predicted for last
14:58
year and for this year. I. Are you saying that when a sales
15:01
team doesn't hit target, or a sales team isn't performing,
15:04
it's often down to the sales leader because they're not doing
15:07
the right things on a daily basis. To get that from the team
15:10
or picking up what you spoke about earlier. Is it the
15:13
individual? Because what you really summarise with the top
15:16
performers is they invest themselves, they hire a coach,
15:20
they go to competencies, which actually is more habits for the
15:22
salesperson. So where is it going wrong? Is it the sales
15:25
leader or is it the sales people?
15:27
Niraj Kapur: Oh, it's both. You both have to anytime a team
15:30
comes to me and they're struggling, they're never
15:32
struggling because everybody is self aware. They're never
15:35
struggling as a sales leader or invest heavily in them with
15:37
regular coaching. They just it's not it's often because at least
15:40
one of those functions isn't working. And when you work in
15:43
sales teams, even the teams I've been working with very recently,
15:46
they're struggling. The first thing I'll ask them is, okay, so
15:49
what books have you read recently? And I'll say to
15:51
younger people, what YouTube videos have you watched
15:54
recently, or what podcasts have you listened to? And often
15:56
there's complete silence. They listen to Steve Bartlett, which
16:00
is okay now and again, but they don't listen to sales specific
16:03
podcasts. I say, okay, so you're not listening to sales podcasts
16:06
improve. But you know, sales isn't just about sales. It's
16:09
about psychology. It's about emotional intelligence. It's
16:13
about understanding copywriting, when it comes to email and
16:15
LinkedIn DMS, I was also understanding LinkedIn and how
16:18
to leverage it. What have you done to learn about these
16:20
things, complete silence, the amount of lack of self awareness
16:24
that occurs in sales. In 2025 and beyond, we have the most
16:28
amazing technology available in so many areas. There have been
16:31
so many advancements in this world, but yet people in sales
16:35
are not advancing. They're not getting better. There's just
16:38
zero self awareness of the need to really invest themselves
16:41
properly. And when they do invest themselves, they will say
16:44
to the bosses, Look, can you spend 5000 pound a Tony Robbins
16:47
event? Or can you spend several 1000 pound getting us some
16:50
LinkedIn Sales navigators? We can reach more people. And those
16:53
are not solutions are going to build for you long term they're
16:56
okay on a short term level, but in a long term level, it's not
16:59
going to get you your annual target. So salespeople need to
17:02
be much more self aware of where they are, how they come across,
17:06
and to invest themselves. And sales leaders have to stop being
17:09
so critical of their staff and spend more time investing in
17:12
them. And bear in mind, most sales leaders aren't very good
17:15
coaches or managers. They're not they often became a sales leader
17:19
because they were very good at sales, and they wanted a pay
17:21
rise, and the boss said, Okay, I'll make you a sales manager or
17:24
a sales director. But that doesn't justify you to coach
17:26
other people. A lot of sales leaders coach badly and say,
17:30
Look, just follow me, or they don't coach at all. And so you
17:33
have to really blame both parties. It's not it's quite
17:35
rare. It's one person. Quite often. There's two or more
17:38
things
17:39
Mark Ackers: I've said and written very similar many times
17:42
in my career around and it's interesting, because anyone
17:46
listening to this podcast is already ahead of what you're
17:49
talking about, right? They do. They're listening to podcasts.
17:51
They're here. So I kind of want to be respectful of the audience
17:54
and not kind of lay into that because that they are listening
17:56
to podcasts, I suppose it's what else can they be doing to invest
18:01
in their own development? Yeah, like, a very small percentage of
18:05
sales people pay for their own sales coaching, for example. Why
18:08
do you think that is a lot
18:09
Niraj Kapur: of sales people I speak to will say, Well, I'll
18:11
work with an erage. If the boss says, Yes, I'm like, well, the
18:13
boss says, No, what are you going to do? You're not hitting
18:15
your target. Why don't you invest in it yourself? And they
18:18
start making excuses. Oh, let me think about it. Or I'll speak to
18:20
my partner about it. My Come on. You want a sales career or not?
18:24
You know, it's just what I hear are excuses all the time. And so
18:27
people, when sales people work with me, it always tends to come
18:30
through the boss. But anytime a sales person had the initiative
18:34
to invest in me themselves, they've gone on to have much
18:37
more success because they've taken the initiative to spend
18:39
their own money. When your company spends the money you
18:42
might invest, you might learn, you might not. It depends on
18:45
your attitude, but if you spend your own money, believe you me,
18:49
you will work really hard to make sure you get that money
18:52
back times five or times 10 you will, because it's your money.
18:56
There's more at stake. And a lot of people default to saying,
18:59
Well, we'll see what the boss says. We'll see what HR says,
19:01
But HR, you shouldn't be asking HR about your career. You have
19:05
to take responsibility for your career. You look at all the
19:08
people that we know, that we respect and that we admire.
19:11
Okay, whether it's the Daniel Disneys, the Benjamin Dennehy,
19:15
our colleagues in America, you know, the John Barrows, the
19:18
Marcus chan the Lindsay Boggs, Amy volases, all these people. I
19:22
know them all, and I've met most of them. They invest very
19:26
heavily in themselves and going to conferences. They invest very
19:29
heavily in coaches. They go to conferences. They some of them
19:33
read. Others will listen to podcasts. But they invest
19:36
heavily in themselves, not when times are difficult, but when
19:40
times are good as well. So right now, in 2025 I'm having the best
19:43
year of my career. 2024 was tough for me. I made one or two
19:46
wrong decisions with people I invested in, but 2025 has been
19:49
outstanding for me, and despite the fact I'm having the best
19:52
year of my career, I'm currently investing more in myself than I
19:56
ever have to better myself, and I really want everybody
19:59
listening and. Watching to think about that. I'm not waiting
20:01
until times get tough. I'm investing now while times are
20:05
outstanding, because that's what successful people do.
20:07
Mark Ackers: The other thing that is just important to touch
20:10
upon is you're right. Again, I talk about this a lot good sales
20:13
people get promoted into managers, but it doesn't make
20:16
them good coaches, and what they rely on, typically is, well, do
20:19
what I did, because that worked for me, but it's a whole
20:21
different skillset. I would say on this podcast, we probably
20:25
covered that quite a lot, in that difficult dilemma of you
20:28
become a manager, and it's a whole new job now, and you don't
20:31
get the support in learning that, I think what I found
20:34
interesting is I still don't feel like I got a detailed
20:37
answer from you as to what makes a good boss. You spoke about
20:40
praise. You spoke about recognising hard work. You spoke
20:44
about being nice. But if you were building like the perfect
20:48
boss to lead a sales team, what other attributes are in there?
20:51
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20:55
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21:27
Niraj Kapur: Oh, very simple. And I learned this only when I
21:30
became a boss. Unfortunately, I looked at other bosses in the
21:32
company who were way more experienced than me, way, way
21:35
more experienced, way better, way more successful at the time.
21:38
Luckily, I was working at Informa, and I got a coach at
21:40
inform I thought, You know what, I really should be investing
21:42
myself. So I got a coach, stay ahead. And my coach said to me,
21:45
spend every Monday morning with every member of your team doing
21:49
one to one coaching. I said, he crazy. That will take up my
21:52
entire Monday. He goes, now, Raj, you want our team to
21:55
succeed, this is what you have to do. I'm like, Oh, for God's
21:57
sake, it's gonna take out my pro. I'm gonna lose prospecting
22:00
time. I'm going to lose everything if I do this. And I
22:02
did it begrudgingly. And after a month, I started to see the team
22:06
move the needle a bit, because when you sit down, you spend 30
22:08
minutes with a member of staff on a Monday morning, and the
22:11
first few minutes you're asking about, how are you? And you just
22:13
listen, you let them talk, and then you say, Okay, what was the
22:16
highlight of your week last week? Okay, brilliant. What did
22:18
you learn? Okay, and where are you in your pipeline this week?
22:21
And what do you think you're going to close and close and
22:23
what do you think you're in danger of losing and how to be
22:25
protected? And you ask just five or six really important
22:28
questions in a one to one, you will learn so much about your
22:32
memory. You will learn so much about your team, and your team
22:34
will improve very quickly. Or unfortunately, you realise,
22:39
yeah, this person is not working out here, and you make sure your
22:42
team come prepared to these meetings fully on a Monday
22:45
morning. They don't just wing it. If you ask somebody their
22:48
target, they don't go, let me look it up in the CRM. No, no.
22:52
They will know their target off by heart, because that's what
22:54
great salespeople do. The amateurs will go, Oh, God, I
22:57
don't know. Let me look it up and I'll come back to you, a
23:00
professional knows exactly where they are. They know what they
23:03
have to hit, they know what they have to get, so they come in
23:05
fully prepared for those meetings. And that is absolutely
23:09
gold, and it's one of the smartest things you can do as a
23:12
manager.
23:13
Mark Ackers: So you started with saying you got to do one to one
23:16
coaching at the start of every Monday. What you described to me
23:18
there felt more like pipeline reviews. And that's fine, that's
23:22
an important part of a manager, but I'm just curious how you see
23:25
that differently to maybe how I've interpreted that.
23:28
Niraj Kapur: Yeah, it's a pipeline review. I call it I
23:30
call it coaching, because it's very intimate, and it's one on
23:33
one. And if somebody's struggling their pipeline and
23:36
they're saying, Yeah, this person might close with a few
23:40
objections, like, okay, so what objections are you having? Okay,
23:43
and what can we do to overcome those objections? So for me,
23:45
that's really coaching. Yes, it's a pipeline review, of
23:47
course, technically, but there's a lot of one to one coaching
23:50
involved in that. Okay? And so this person's been stuck at 30%
23:53
now for a while. What are we gonna do to get it to 40% Well,
23:56
I'm sending an email. Okay, so show me the quality of the email
23:59
you're sending. Oh, okay, I see what the problem is. Okay. So
24:02
what can you to make this email better? And then, quite often,
24:05
you're just the email in half. You write better buzz words. You
24:08
get everything the first two sentences. You know, to me,
24:10
that's one to one coaching. It's more than a pipeline review.
24:13
Pipeline reviews are kind of cold and clinical and kind of
24:16
dull, but there's always one to one coaching in that. So on a
24:19
Monday, that is key for individual members of a team.
24:22
And then on a Wednesday morning, the whole team get together and
24:26
you have proper sales training. You choose a topic, whether it
24:30
is closing a deal, whether it is sales process, whether it is
24:33
overcoming objections, which is huge right now, whether it's
24:36
overcoming ghosting, which is probably the I would say
24:38
ghosting and client indecision are the two biggest problems we
24:42
have right now. And you talk about it, and then you do a role
24:44
play on it. You don't just train people on it. You have to do
24:47
role plays. You have to get member of the team and actually
24:50
do a live role play so people can see it. Because teaching
24:53
something is one thing, but doing it is a completely other
24:56
thing, and that's what I do in my coaching and training
24:58
sessions. We don't just learn. We take action. So you got the
25:01
Monday pipeline review forward slash one to one coaching, and
25:04
then on Wednesday, you have the team training as
25:07
Mark Ackers: well. So I'm pleased I pushed because the way
25:09
in which you described your pipeline reviews slash coaching,
25:13
the key for me was you were not giving the answers. You were
25:16
asking the questions and getting them to think and present back
25:20
Niraj Kapur: to you. Don't give answers to people ever. They
25:21
don't learn that way. You have to ask questions and as much as
25:24
possible get them to, I mean, this is coaching, of course, but
25:28
and get them to give the answers as much as possible. If they're
25:31
stuck, by all means, help them, but you want the answers to come
25:34
from them. Because what I found is if the answers come from the
25:37
other person, they're much more likely as hic action. But if you
25:40
tell somebody what to do, it's gonna be a bigger struggle.
25:44
Mark Ackers: I agree. I always use the analogy of inception,
25:47
the movie. I know you've seen it, but it's where you have to
25:50
make them feel like the ideas originated in their head, so
25:52
it's more believable, rather than give them the idea. I love
25:55
how you described going from the Monday to the Wednesday. I
25:59
picked up on you using the word training and coaching, and
26:02
sometimes you were using them interchangeably. Other times, it
26:05
felt like you were very specific with that's coaching, that's
26:07
training. And I just want to really get from you, what do you
26:10
see as a difference between training and coaching? In your
26:13
own
26:13
Niraj Kapur: words, this may not be the difference, but it's how
26:15
I perceive it. So for me, coaching is it's very intimate.
26:18
It has to be more one on one based it's a much slower
26:22
process, and it's more about focusing on the individual,
26:25
whereas training, for me is more about having a group of people
26:28
together, like a team together, and working with the team as a
26:30
whole. That for me, rightly or wrongly, is how I see the
26:34
difference between coaching and training.
26:36
Mark Ackers: That's your take. I'm not too dissimilar to how
26:39
you say it. In fairness, I want to get into the biggest things
26:43
that you're seeing with ghosting and client indecision, I
26:47
suppose, before that, trying to keep in some sort of
26:49
chronological order to what you've shared, because there's
26:51
lots of gold here. You made loads of wrong decisions last
26:54
year. What did you What did you get wrong? The two biggest
26:56
Niraj Kapur: wrong
26:56
decisions I made last year was, I want to go really big last
26:59
year, so I invested very heavily in a YouTube channel. And the
27:03
second thing I did was, at the same time, I invested heavily in
27:06
SEO and the YouTube channel. I look back on it thinking, at
27:10
least I learned a lot about it, but I made nothing from it.
27:13
After 12 months investment, it cost me a fortune. It was my
27:17
money. And the first person I hired was a very nice guy, and I
27:20
have to fire him, which I hated doing, but he wasn't good
27:23
enough. And firing anybody is a it's never a pleasant
27:26
experience, ever, especially that person's a friend, and
27:28
we're not friends anymore, because that happens when you
27:31
fire people, sometimes they don't like it, even when they
27:33
make mistakes, they don't like it. And the second person I got
27:36
was better, but still it didn't work the way I wanted it to. And
27:40
the SEOs, because I wanted anybody, anytime that people put
27:43
in sales training, or, you know, sales coaching, one to one
27:46
coaching, I wanted my name to be there, and they were driving
27:49
traffic to my website. They were putting news articles my
27:51
website. Because apparently we put news articles on the
27:54
website, it drives traffic from Google towards it. And that was
27:56
a catastrophic failure. And so I've lost all my business
28:00
savings that I spent years accumulating in one year was a
28:04
it was just, it really hurt, and it was a very painful lesson.
28:07
And unfortunately, when you when you feel anything in life, you
28:10
do lose a bit of confidence, and you do start to question your
28:13
abilities. And that's dangerous, because you need confidence in
28:16
sales. You can't be going to sales thinking, you know, you
28:19
have to have some kind of good confidence. And I did, in
28:22
November, December last year, lose a lot of confidence and
28:25
question myself far too much,
28:27
Mark Ackers: and you've only given me the headlines there
28:29
when you've hired somebody. Because unless you're going to
28:32
tell me otherwise, I'm going to assume you're not an SEO expert
28:35
or YouTube expert, hence hiring someone, I'm
28:37
Niraj Kapur: just going to delegate to you, because I
28:39
assume you're the expert, and therefore I expect you to get on
28:41
Mark Ackers: with it. Yeah, exactly. That's exactly how I
28:44
thought you'd answer it. So if you've hired people in those
28:46
roles and they failed, why has that affected your confidence?
28:49
Niraj Kapur: Because all the money I worked so hard for as a
28:53
LinkedIn trainer and as a LinkedIn all the savings.
28:56
Because bear in mind, when I when I earn money, it doesn't
28:58
just go towards bills. You know, I'm not my 50s. My father is my
29:02
81 so it goes towards private health care, which you need, and
29:05
it goes towards having a good life. Because in your 50s, you
29:08
know, health care is important, living a good life is important.
29:10
And all of a sudden, if all the savings is gone at my age, it's
29:14
dangerous to have no backup. You got to have at least a few
29:17
months salary in your bank account. People are 20s. May not
29:20
agree with me, but trust me, when you get to my age, having a
29:23
few months salary is a blessing. Having six months salary is
29:26
ideal, and it means that when situations occur regarding
29:30
healthcare or regarding a nicer holiday, or my stepdaughter has
29:33
just graduated from law school, and I decided to live with us
29:36
for the next six months, you know, you have all these things
29:38
happening. Money helps you, on so many levels, make decisions,
29:42
and when I spent all that savings, it's like, what do I do
29:45
now? What have I spent? 2025 making the wrong decisions
29:49
again, and that was my fear. I see
29:51
Mark Ackers: you wait. Your confidence is around making a
29:54
decision to rectify it and go big in 2025 given you've spoke
29:57
about investing in yourself and investing with. Good Times are
30:00
going well, and we're two sales people that will be comfortable
30:04
talking about money. I have to ask, how much did you invest
30:06
into this last year, an SEO on YouTube channel, almost 20,000
30:10
pounds, right? Okay, and that sounds like that was a huge bet
30:13
for you, and it didn't work out. What? But the good news is, what
30:18
I'm hearing is you're having the best year ever in 2025 and I
30:22
want to know what you've changed, but I did ask you that,
30:25
because when I reached out to you on LinkedIn, I said, What?
30:29
What's changed for it to go really well, and I just loved
30:31
your answer. You said, prospecting. And I just think
30:34
that that is the cure for for most Gremlins, building big
30:39
healthy pipeline and lots of sounds reps don't do that. The
30:43
older, more mature, more experienced they get, the less
30:45
they prospect. But that's just the headline you gave me. Tell
30:48
me, what have you done? What have you done to turn it around
30:52
and make 2025 the best year it's
30:53
Niraj Kapur: been okay. So I spend a lot of time reading and
30:56
personal development and studying and in stoicism, one of
31:00
the things they teach you to do is detach from the outcome. Of
31:03
course, you always want the outcome, but quite often you'll
31:05
have control over the outcome. And before, when a client
31:08
rejected me, you know it upsets you, because you're a human
31:10
being, and sometimes it affect me for days, thinking that was a
31:13
big deal. Why did I lose that? What's wrong? And now it's like,
31:15
you know what? The client's gone is there any lesson I can learn
31:18
from this? Yes, brilliant. Let's not make that mistake again, or
31:22
just don't get hung up on a deal. You have to detach from
31:25
the outcome that's really important. I don't see a lot of
31:28
people. I see a lot of people getting very depressed when they
31:30
lose deals and slowing down a bit, and they often cut back on
31:33
prospecting instead of accelerating it. So I would call
31:36
that. You can call it stoicism, you can call it emotional
31:39
intelligence, but let's call it what it is, detaching from the
31:43
outcome and not letting rejection lead to self
31:46
rejection. Okay, so that's the first thing. The second thing in
31:50
terms of prospecting. You know, I don't know a single person
31:53
Mark who's ever said to me. You know what? I really wish I had
31:56
more emails. Nobody says that. Nobody wants more emails, and so
32:01
I tend to prospect two ways. I send videos through LinkedIn,
32:05
DMS, because most people just don't do that. And just to be
32:08
clear everybody, I don't have fancy software. I use my phone.
32:12
That is it. I use my phone, my mobile phone, which I'm holding
32:15
up to those of you listening. And the second thing I do, which
32:18
again, hardly anybody does, is I write letters in the post. And
32:23
the reason I write letters on good quality paper, which you
32:25
then sign in beautiful ink and put in a very nice envelope and
32:29
lovely quality headed paper, is because none of my competition
32:33
I'm aware of do this. Nobody gets anything useful set in the
32:36
post. It helps you stand out. And also, you can make letters a
32:40
bit longer than emails as well, and I have found tremendous
32:43
success sending letters in the post. And I tend to break into
32:46
two groups of people. One are people who have never spoken to
32:49
me, and the second group of prospects are people who work
32:52
with me in 2023 in 2022 in 2021 and I don't just say hey, I'm a
32:58
LinkedIn trainer. I'm a LinkedIn top voice. I've written three
33:00
books. I'm a TEDx speaker, I'm an award winning sales coach,
33:04
and all the nonsense so many people talk about, what I'll do
33:06
is I'll say, do you know that 90% of business takes place in
33:12
the follow up? And I guarantee your sales team are not
33:14
following up properly. They might be sending multiple
33:16
emails, saying thoughts, but that's not really how to follow
33:19
up. And here's three suggestions I have and how you can follow up
33:22
better. And I'll give my three suggestions, and I'll say, if
33:24
that's been helpful to you, I'm happy to share more information.
33:27
Here are my details. So what I've done is I've shared a
33:30
problem that a business owner or a sales leader is currently
33:33
having, I have given a partial solution to that problem, and
33:37
I've said, if that has been helpful, I am happy to share
33:40
more insights with you, and that is a very effective way to get a
33:44
response from people, because you're not talking about
33:46
yourself. You're not saying, can I get 15 minutes of your time?
33:49
You're not saying, Here's my county link. You're standing out
33:52
head and shoulders above anybody else in your industry. And that
33:56
has been a blessing for me. And one of the people who hired me
33:59
is director of the Royal College of Nursing, who I worked with 15
34:02
years ago, and I just messaged, and I just sent that letter, and
34:05
it was gold. It was so useful. Another person was somebody I
34:09
worked with two years ago who said, That's right, they worked
34:11
with two years ago. Yeah, things have been going great. I've
34:13
gotten on a member of staff, actually on board, can you do
34:16
some training with them? And just all these lovely things
34:19
opened up because I stood out, and I was different, and I gave
34:22
value. So emotional detachment, prospecting through LinkedIn
34:25
video and sending letters in the
34:27
Mark Ackers: post. What I love about that is like you say you
34:30
you almost demonstrating that you can do it, hence why you're
34:33
credible to teach it. You also mentioned that you invest in
34:36
yourself now more so, like when things are going well. So so
34:40
tell me what what do you currently do to invest in
34:43
yourself?
34:43
Niraj Kapur: I do things. I try and look what other sales people
34:46
are doing, and I try and do stuff they're not doing. So, for
34:48
example, I attend at least three marketing conferences a year,
34:51
and I spend time in rumours with these are all paid for
34:54
conferences. I don't go to free events. I prefer, if possible,
34:57
paid for events. You get different kind of person who
34:59
attends. Pounds, and I'll pay in Dublin, it's 200 euros. In the
35:03
UK, it's about 150 maybe 200 pounds. And I was sitting in a
35:06
room full of marketing directors and marketing managers, and I
35:08
literally go there and ask questions. So what book you're
35:11
currently reading right now that's helping you? What are the
35:13
biggest challenges you're facing? Do you think sales teams
35:15
right now? What are the biggest demands sales teams? I just go
35:18
there with a notepad and a pen and I ask questions like a
35:21
sponge, and that's just to the people, by the way, who are
35:23
attending. That's not even to the speakers. That is just to
35:26
the people who are attending. And I network, and I always
35:30
share a lot of LinkedIn insight with people, because, with great
35:32
respect to marketing people, majority of them haven't a clue
35:36
how to use LinkedIn. They really don't. So I will share a lot of
35:38
insight with them onto how to use LinkedIn so they see me as a
35:41
person of value, and because I'm asking questions, when you ask
35:44
good questions to people, they kind of see as a person who's a
35:46
bit intelligent as well. And I come armed with lots of
35:49
information when I go there. So I attend marketing conferences,
35:52
which is vital, but also, you know, I polish up in my skills,
35:57
what I call my non sales skills, which are very important. So I
36:00
mentioned stoicism, I mentioned copywriting. I read a lot of
36:03
books on copywriting, and also I'm doing a six month business
36:06
course right now on scaling my business, and that is teaching
36:09
me so much about growth, about pricing, about lead magnets, and
36:14
I'm just getting better and better and better. I'm going to
36:16
launch something very big, very soon, which I can't talk about,
36:19
but I'm getting better and better. So it's business skills.
36:22
With those business skills comes a coaching programme. It's
36:26
attending marketing conferences. And it's continued to be in a
36:29
position where, after 31 years in sales, I'm still humble
36:32
enough to say, You know what? I don't know it all, and I'm still
36:35
here to learn every
36:36
Mark Ackers: day. I love that. So again, real examples of
36:39
putting yourself out there, travelling to events, paying
36:42
paying for your ticket, investing in coaching
36:44
programmes, looking to grow and develop even 31 years later,
36:48
still having the mindset of growth. I notice you ask a lot
36:51
of people what book you read in the minute. Can't ask you, What
36:54
book are you reading at the minute?
36:55
Niraj Kapur: You certainly can actually there you go. Now
37:00
here's the thing. I bought this because you wrote it. I bought
37:02
your first book problem prospecting, which I loved. But
37:04
when I read a book that's really good, what I tend to do is wait
37:07
for, like, two months, and I go back and every day a second
37:10
time, and I'm holding up a highlighter here, and I go
37:12
through with a highlighter and I make notes, because, you know,
37:15
you read a book that's very good, you're gonna forget half
37:17
it after two months. You just will. So I always read good
37:19
books a second time, and I'll make notes, or I'll highlight
37:22
the notes, and I make sure I look back at that regularly,
37:25
just to remind myself what I've learned from it, because there's
37:28
no point reading books if you're going to forget about what
37:31
you've learned. You know, same as sales training. You know,
37:33
most people I train, they forget stuff the next day. So I always
37:36
say, Okay, after this training tomorrow, I want you to send me
37:39
three things you're going to do off the back of this training
37:42
that means they're not going to forget as much. And then they
37:44
respond to me. Then I look at it and I respond back. And then a
37:47
week later, what are you doing right now? But also, what are
37:50
you having challenges with? Because you have to keep people
37:53
accountable and you have to put stuff into action. Otherwise,
37:56
reading and training is a complete waste of time.
37:58
Mark Ackers: Cynics will think that we plan that I did not know
38:01
that that was going to be the book that you lifted up. I
38:03
appreciate people listening, not watching or will not see me
38:08
blushing, but yeah, you So you picked up deconstructing
38:10
discovery. I'll ask since, since we're here, as I say, slightly
38:13
blushing being being British is what we do. But what do you
38:17
think
38:17
Niraj Kapur: of it? It's a terrific book. Here's the thing.
38:19
Here's why it's terrific. That's more important. I literally had
38:22
this book here because you're going to be here. And also, as a
38:24
fellow author, I know how incredibly difficult it is to
38:27
write a book, but I also know how incredibly difficult it is
38:30
to sell a book. You know, a lot of people write books and go,
38:32
Hey, I'm a best selling author. No, you're not. You got into the
38:35
Amazon top 100 for two hours. Get over yourself. You know,
38:38
there's a big difference. But selling a book is really hard,
38:42
and when you sell it, you only get 30% Amazon take the rest,
38:46
and of that 30% you have to pay taxes, you know. So it's like
38:49
people don't realise how hard you have to work as an author.
38:51
And those authors who are really big and sell 100,000 copies a
38:54
year, it's probably what point not a 1% made. All the friends
38:58
who have had the written sales books, not one of them sold
39:00
100,000 copies, I'll tell you. But many of them are very, very
39:04
good books, and sales books, certainly, at the moment, are
39:07
getting harder and harder to get good information from, because
39:11
they're often regurgitating the same thing. And what I liked
39:13
about your book is the way I learn is I like simplicity. I
39:17
don't like complicated stuff. I don't want to read books are
39:21
just packed with research and data. That's just not how my
39:24
brain works. I like books like Simon Sinek start with why,
39:27
which are just simple and actionable and make sense to me,
39:31
because I'm really busy. I haven't got time to try to
39:33
deconstruct a book. I want to deconstruct something simply.
39:36
And what you did was you give outlines of emails. You give
39:40
outlines of how conversation should go. You give examples in
39:45
your book of how things should be, and from my perspective,
39:49
that makes my life much easier.
39:50
Mark Ackers: Wow. Thank you for as I say, for those listening,
39:54
it's deconstructing discovery. That's the review right there.
39:57
What about podcasts? You. You know, let's say this one,
40:01
because that would be just, I'd be too embarrassing. What? Why
40:04
we
40:04
Niraj Kapur: started your podcast three weeks ago, so I'm
40:06
not going to mention your podcast. I'm taking my phone out
40:09
here. All right. So my podcasts are a mixture, and I'll tell you
40:13
not only the podcast, but why I chose them. So let me go to my
40:16
downloads. Okay, so the first is Joel osting, which is about God,
40:20
and regardless of whether you think this is an inappropriate
40:23
topic or not, is irrelevant. But having faith is very important
40:26
in life. And the last five years, you know, I lost
40:29
everything five years ago with divorce and then lockdown, and I
40:32
had to rebuild my life again, which, by the way, in early 40s.
40:35
I mean rebuilding your life's never nice, just to be clear,
40:38
rebuilding your life in your late 40s as a man who also
40:42
happens to be bold and Indian, it's so difficult, I can't even
40:47
tell you. So I just found faith really helped me in those
40:51
darkest moments. So I listened to Joel Osteen book, and I find
40:54
faith and positivity just very good in general. I listen to
40:57
sales gravy by Jeb blunt. Why? Because it's podcast 10 minutes.
41:02
That's it. I can't do the whole two hours. Steve Bartlett, three
41:05
hour. Andrew Huberman, I've tried. I just have no patience.
41:08
I really don't good for them, their success, it's not for me.
41:11
I like podcasts that are short and snappy and to the point. So
41:15
sales gravy by Jeb blunt, and sales influenced by Victor
41:18
Antonio. I also have, this is the way which I'm really
41:23
enjoying a lot of good sales and LinkedIn people on there. I
41:26
don't know those guys. It's just something I picked up recently.
41:29
There's an American business bond by guy called Bedros truly
41:33
on who's Craig Valentine's partner. And I like him just
41:36
because he's loud and he's actually Armenian, but he's loud
41:39
American, unfiltered, quite different to the kind of thing I
41:42
would normally listen to, but I like the fact that it's
41:45
balanced, because it's just a bit more hardcore nice. I
41:47
couldn't
41:48
Mark Ackers: help but smile when you said you didn't like big,
41:50
long podcasts. And I'm thinking, Christ, I've had you here
41:52
already for sort of 40 to 50 minutes. Let's pick it up. Let's
41:56
pick up the speed. So one of the things that I wrote down, and
41:59
then I've dropped my pen on the floor, and I'm sort of strapped
42:01
in to this chair, not literally, but if I get up, I'm going to
42:04
move the microphone. But you said client and indecision are
42:09
two of the biggest things that you're seeing right now. And I
42:11
was going to ask you, you know, when you reach when people reach
42:13
out to you for help, what are the most common problems? Here's
42:16
the thing. Let's take them separately, ghosting and client
42:19
indecision. They're headlines. What's the root cause of those
42:22
problems? And take them one at a
42:23
Niraj Kapur: time. Okay, so when a client ghost you, they're
42:26
ghosting you for a variety of reasons. Sometimes you just
42:29
haven't built the trust with them or given them enough value,
42:32
and sometimes they just have more important stuff going on
42:36
than you. That's it, and I haven't actually my percentage
42:39
breakdown, but it's probably close to 5050, I would imagine
42:42
they simply have more important things. Buying from a
42:44
salesperson is not top of their priority list. If you're running
42:48
a business, or if you're a sales leader, you have so many things
42:51
going on. You got to deal with staff, you got to deal with
42:53
targets. You got to layers with marketing. You got to probably
42:56
hit your own target. If you're a Selling Manager, which I was for
42:58
many years, you have so many things to think about,
43:01
recruitment, getting rid of a member of staff, maybe the last
43:04
thing in your mind is this person is selling to me. So
43:08
please bear that in mind. A lot of the time the other person is
43:11
simply busy, but the rest of the time you simply haven't given
43:15
enough value or built enough trust with that person for them
43:18
to want to go forward and do business with
43:21
Mark Ackers: you. Let's talk about building trust again.
43:23
That's a headline. If a sales rep struggles to build trust,
43:26
that's a headline. There's lots of reasons you might not be able
43:29
to do that, like, off the top of my head, right? You might not
43:33
have the desire or motivation to really be in sales. Maybe
43:37
haven't got the will to sell, from a DNA point of view,
43:40
perhaps you've got a high need for approval, and you struggle
43:44
to ask the right questions. And like you said earlier, right
43:46
asking great questions can build credibility and build trust and
43:50
build interest. And perhaps you don't handle rejection very
43:53
well. It might be you've got supportive buy cycles where you
43:57
accept people buying from you, how you might buy yourself, or
44:01
limiting beliefs tactically. It could be you don't qualify, you
44:04
don't reach actual decision makers, you don't uncover
44:08
compelling reasons. Perhaps you don't ask the right questions or
44:11
enough questions. There's lots of things that link to trust.
44:14
But what do you think is, if someone's listening to this and
44:17
they're thinking, Do you know what? I think people might like
44:19
me, but they don't trust me as much as they should, and
44:22
credibility is important. What can they what can they work on
44:25
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44:28
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44:54
Niraj Kapur: Today, I would always recommend people to tap
44:56
into the language of the person you're speaking to. So. So for
45:00
the first time in 2025 I'm coaching not one, but two CEOs.
45:04
Now these CEOs are way more successful than me, probably
45:08
earning at least 10 to 20 times what I earn. Okay, I can't
45:12
really teach them anything, but they trust me. They hired me
45:15
because they trust me. They've hired big consulting companies
45:17
before who just took as much money as they could, and they
45:20
hired me because they trusted me. And how did I earn that
45:22
trust? Well, when I spoke to them, I was recommended to them,
45:25
which always helps, of course, but that only moves you forward
45:28
slightly. What I then did, I didn't just say hi. I've been
45:32
recommended to by such and such. I've written three books. I've
45:36
been in sales for 30 years. I'm a TEDx speaker. I'm a LinkedIn
45:38
top voice, officially LinkedIn, they don't care. What I would
45:41
say is, as a CEO, here's what I imagine you're going through a
45:45
daily basis, dealing with market share, dealing with legacy,
45:47
dealing with revenue growth threats everywhere. So
45:51
immediately, in the first two to three lines, I let them know I
45:55
understand their world. I also know how you probably have very
45:58
little time available for coaching. So rather than doing
46:01
60 minute sessions, a lot of CEOs I've spoken to before
46:04
prefer 20 minutes or 30 minutes a week instead of one hour. That
46:07
is how I build trust, because I let them know I understand their
46:11
world and I tap into their world. When you speak to a sales
46:14
leader, for example, you don't talk about legacy, you just
46:18
don't or or revenue or, sorry, not, or market share. What you
46:22
do talk about is ROI targets, making the staff better. That's
46:27
the language I use with a sales leader or a sales director, but
46:30
with a CEO, it's always revenue, it's market share, it's legacy.
46:35
If I'm speaking to financial director, I build trust by
46:37
talking about cutting costs, because that's a lot of them get
46:40
bonuses on that when you're speaking to an HR director,
46:42
because some HR directors sit on boards as well. Mark, you speak
46:45
to them about staff well being you'll speak to an HR director
46:49
about marketing. Roi, you know you have to use the right
46:51
language. And when I observe demos each week, and I listen to
46:55
phone calls every single week, I rarely see sales people adapting
46:59
their language to the person they're speaking to. I see them
47:02
speaking exactly the same way to everybody, and that's not going
47:06
to help you. And you build trust. When people think, oh,
47:09
this person gets me, not this person's a genius, or this
47:11
person's got a 200 IQ, this person gets me. He or she
47:15
understands what I'm going through.
47:16
Mark Ackers: This way you hear the phrase now you're speaking
47:19
my language. Here's the problem with that, that I sympathise
47:22
with sellers, is they often, they often sell to people that
47:27
are doing a job they've never done you, as a CEO of your own
47:29
business, understand the CEO world and just you're over older
47:34
generation. You've had more experience, right? Like you, you
47:38
are more experienced than most people that listen to this
47:40
podcast is in terms of length of service to the role. But you've
47:44
experienced what a CEO thinks. You've been a sales leader. You
47:48
know what a sales leader thinks, why they get up, why they go to
47:51
work, what they moan about. We've spoken heavily about the
47:53
money that you spend. You understand money coming in,
47:55
money going out, right? You can talk from a CFO point of view,
48:00
so you have that advantage, but, but this is the missing piece. A
48:04
seller needs to learn how to speak the language of the person
48:08
they're selling to, why they get up, why they go to work, how
48:11
they describe their problems. And actually not, you know, I've
48:14
said it a few times, not the headlines, what the actual root
48:17
cause is, and what's the language to use when they go
48:19
home of an evening and they moan about their day. What language
48:23
do they use? Because if you can talk that language, I absolutely
48:26
agree that's when you connect. That's when you build
48:29
credibility and trust. And actually, it doesn't even matter
48:32
if they like you or not. They trust you, and people get it
48:35
wrong. They think they need to be liked, and that can lead to
48:39
ghosting, that can lead to client indecision and and I
48:42
agree with you, Indecision is a huge problem right now. But
48:46
again, that's a headline. So many things lead to indecision.
48:50
What do you see as the root causes for indecision? There's a
48:53
lot
48:53
Niraj Kapur: of crossover between indecision and ghosting.
48:57
Of course, you gotta acknowledge that. So a lot of indecision is
48:59
just they have other stuff going on, just like in ghosting. But
49:03
love Indecision is just sometimes they have to wait back
49:05
to hear from other people, and not everybody's a great
49:08
communicator. A lot of the time, people just don't communicate to
49:11
other people look and when they get back an answer from such and
49:13
such. I'll come back to you shortly. And so it's indecision,
49:17
and it's a real problem people have, but it's not the end of
49:20
the world, and too many sales people treat it like it's the
49:23
end of the world. And my advice to sales people everywhere is,
49:27
if you don't get a decision from somebody, please, for the love
49:30
of God, do not send them an email saying, I've not heard
49:33
back from you. What are your thoughts? Which is, what the
49:35
most common thing they do is, or they write it off too quickly.
49:39
You know the amount of effort you have to make right now to do
49:42
business with people, you should need a minimum of seven to 10
49:46
touch points. And of course, bigger companies more touch
49:49
points, and yet, most people give up after two or three
49:51
attempts. So what I do? Because bear in mind, whatever sales
49:54
people go through I also have to go through a lot of the time as
49:57
a business owner, because so much of my work is out. Bound
50:00
and prospecting based. And so therefore people ghost me, and
50:03
people still make indecisions with me. And so what I do is I
50:07
still make sure I am giving them value. And what does that mean?
50:10
The word value could be quite abstract. I will make sure I
50:13
click the bell next to their LinkedIn profile. So when they
50:15
do post on LinkedIn, I at least see what they're talking about,
50:19
and I can either like and comment on those posts or
50:22
message them and give my thoughts on their posts. I will
50:25
make sure I sign up to their company's blog or newsletter,
50:28
which you can do with most companies. So at least I'm Kel
50:31
well, well informed of what the company is doing, so I can drop
50:35
emails or LinkedIn DMS or send videos saying I really like what
50:39
you've done here, or here's an article I read. I had a client
50:43
ghost me recently. He was really interested in me doing sales
50:46
presentations with his team, and I couldn't get hold of him. I
50:48
thought, You know what, dear James, it's mid July. I hope
50:51
you're having an amazing holiday, which is fine, because
50:54
I get it. It's summertime. If you're not on holiday and you're
50:57
you're very busy being a CEO, I get it. Every CEO I work with is
51:00
super busy. Here's an article I wrote on Salesforce about how to
51:04
do better sales presentations. Your team will get so much value
51:07
from this. I just thought you'd appreciate sharing it with them.
51:10
Best wishes, Mirage, that's it, and I got a response within half
51:14
a day. Thank you so much. I've been really busy. Shared it with
51:16
my team. I'll come back to you soon. That's better, because I
51:20
gave value to that person. And by the way, it doesn't have to
51:22
be an article you're written. Can be an article somebody else
51:25
has written, but you're dealing with their problems, you're
51:27
dealing with their challenges, and you're being a person of
51:30
value. And when it comes to clients being indecisive, giving
51:34
them tonnes of value can sometimes help move the needle
51:38
in the right direction. And I say can sometimes help, because
51:42
a lot of the time you don't hear from people that
51:44
Mark Ackers: is part, part of the course with sales, and it's
51:47
about being disconnected from the outcome, which, which is so
51:49
hard because we're measured on the outcome. But what I like is
51:53
you're sharing content with no ask. It's trying to be helpful,
51:57
trying to trying to remain connected and be diligent. And
52:01
actually it is rare that sales trainers will proactively
52:05
prospect, right? They do rely on referrals, which you've said is
52:08
always better, but it only gets you one step close, but that's
52:11
what a lot of people rely on. It's rare. And I spoke to a lot
52:14
of sales trainers when I was working at refract. I was
52:18
responsible for selling to sales writers. That's actually how you
52:22
and I met. I don't know how much you remember, but I think it was
52:26
around 2020. We had a discovery call where I was I was trying to
52:29
run a discovery call with you for a fact and your sales
52:33
training business. But yeah, it's, I've sort of lost my train
52:37
of thought slightly, but it was really good. But you got my
52:40
attention when you called me. So what do you Well, it's
52:43
interesting. You remember that? What do you remember from that
52:45
five years?
52:46
Niraj Kapur: I remember most cold calls I get are so bad,
52:48
right? I get good ones. I do remember them because there's so
52:51
I get one or two good cold calls a year. Now, obviously, since I
52:53
bought your book, since then, I know of my sales coach, I'm a
52:56
bit more aware of who you are, but you knew who I was. You'd
52:59
researched my business, and you said something which isn't as
53:01
original now, but it was my original five years ago. Can I
53:04
have 35 seconds here? Tell me, whoa, 35 seconds. What's going
53:07
on here? Because nobody, nobody ever said that to me. I'm like,
53:10
okay, I'd be 35 seconds. And then I think you talked for a
53:12
minute. I stopped using Hey. You said 35 seconds, which was a
53:15
dick move, I know, but you said 35 seconds, but I respected you
53:19
for calling me. It takes courage to pick up the phone. You've
53:22
done your research on me and used an opener that I hadn't
53:25
heard before. Even if I got a cold call, I've only had, I
53:29
think, two cold calls this year that were good. One person said
53:32
to me, hi, this is a cold call. You want to hang up. And I know
53:35
it's an oldie, but it made me laugh. You know what? You made a
53:38
cold call. I'll give you 60 seconds. I always give them 60
53:41
seconds, because I know how hard it is, but I get one or two cold
53:44
calls a month. That's it. It's not like my phone. My phone
53:46
number has been public for years. I recently hit it just so
53:49
people can stop calling me. But it's been public for years, but
53:52
still, people insist on bombarding me by email, copy and
53:55
paste, emails, AI, emails which are terrible, or sending me
53:59
terrible LinkedIn, DMS, which all look and sound, copy and
54:02
paste. And if I read something and it stinks of copy and paste,
54:06
I will delete it, or I'll archive it on LinkedIn or on
54:09
email, I will delete it immediately. And that's what
54:11
people think I'm hard to get hold of. I just ignore most
54:13
stuff because I don't appreciate copy and paste. You want me to
54:17
do business with you, you make it personal, and if I sense it's
54:20
a mass email you've lost
54:21
Mark Ackers: already. I don't disagree. I think again, people
54:24
listening to this podcast will be of this mindset anyway,
54:27
because they're listening right? They're an hour into this
54:30
podcast. But nothing you've said there is groundbreaking. It
54:34
actually is just the basics that people don't do the beginning.
54:38
Niraj Kapur: Exactly what I said at the beginning. So much seals
54:42
the basic stuff.
54:43
Mark Ackers: It's about standing out. And it's easy to stand out
54:45
in a sea of shit. It's easy. It is about going just that, that
54:49
little bit further right, like that, just putting an extra step
54:53
in, do something that's a little bit harder, that takes a little
54:56
bit more time, a little bit more effort, and you will stand out.
55:00
You know, people talk about cold calling is dead, or emailing is
55:03
dead. Actually, it's only dead if you shit it, if you just put
55:07
a little bit more effort in email works, cold calling works
55:12
and voice notes, what that? It all works, and that's what I
55:15
like about you. As I say, you're still practising what you
55:18
preach. You're not just relying on referrals and you've got your
55:21
own cadence for winning your own business, and you've had
55:25
difficult year last year, a difficult year five years ago,
55:28
when we first met, and you've kept going. And what you're
55:32
doing now is leading the way for many others by training and
55:36
coaching and developing them. I love that about you know, you're
55:39
a very positive person that brings a lot of good to the
55:42
world of sales. And there's a reason, you know, Salesforce
55:45
have voted you the top sales influencer to follow for five
55:48
years in a row. Why LinkedIn has given you the top voice for
55:52
people to connect with. You do a lot of good. And you know,
55:56
again, when I you say, What's favourite book I've called you,
55:59
you produce a book straight away, what podcast is that you
56:01
produce a podcast straightaway, you really practice what you
56:04
preach and bring real profession to it. And I think if you agree
56:08
with this, I'm sure you will, but that's the mindset thing
56:11
that we haven't spoke about. The difference, for me, in that 15%
56:15
are people that realise that this is a skill, people that
56:18
have realised that sales isn't just something you do because
56:20
you want to make a quick buck. It's actually a profession. It's
56:23
a discipline, if you learn it and dedicate yourself and go
56:27
above and beyond to read, listen, watch, master your
56:31
craft, seek coaching. You can get better at it and listen to
56:35
podcasts. This might be someone's first step for someone
56:37
listening to this, but I think this has been a great
56:40
conversation. I honestly have about seven pages of questions
56:43
that I wanted to ask you, and I think I've asked like five.
56:46
We've just had a great conversation. I've really
56:49
enjoyed it. This tells me that we should continue speaking, and
56:52
perhaps there's a sequel episode out there, but I'm conscious of
56:56
your time as well and where we're up to, so I think let's
56:59
wrap it there. Niraj, you've written three books. I know of
57:04
all three, I've researched them. I had questions on them, but I
57:07
won't get around to it. But tell everybody a little bit more
57:09
about just who you are connecting you on LinkedIn and
57:12
the books that you've written, sure
57:14
Niraj Kapur: everybody works in sales after seven years, is
57:16
still a book everybody buys because it's only 160 pages.
57:19
It's easy to read and it's storytelling. And by the way,
57:22
just a quick bonus point, there not not. People still tourists
57:26
sell Tories, not not. People still use stories and selling.
57:30
And when you tell stories and presentations their goals. So
57:33
please bear that in mind. So yeah, everybody works in sales.
57:36
Is a story of my sales career. The second book was the easy
57:39
guide to sales for business owners, because so many of my
57:42
clients at that time were business owners. And the third
57:44
book was business growth lessons learned from dating, divorce and
57:48
falling in love, because I went viral and I became big on
57:52
LinkedIn by talking about my personal life and my dating life
57:55
and relating it to sales. And I thought, well, I became huge on
57:58
LinkedIn. This way, I picked up like 20,000 followers, I went
58:01
viral several times. If I do this in a book, the book will
58:04
become huge. No, it didn't. But you know what? I spent two years
58:08
of my life in that bugger and it was one of the best experiences
58:11
my life. And actually hired a team of people, and it was a
58:13
wonderful experience. I didn't get the outcome I wanted, but
58:16
it's the best book I've done, and I'm very proud
58:18
Mark Ackers: of it, and so you should be, and it's important
58:20
you're not attached to the outcome. It's it's about the
58:22
journey, not just the destination. Niraj, I do love
58:26
your content on LinkedIn. I've got a feeling we're going to do
58:29
some work together with my sales coach as well. And yeah, thank
58:33
you for coming on. You've been a great guest, and we'll speak
58:36
soon. It's an
58:36
Niraj Kapur: absolute pleasure, and I can't wait. Thank you so
58:38
much. Mark. You